From saurabh at skjworld.com  Sun May  2 23:18:02 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 11:48:02 +0530
Subject: [html5] Multiple Canvas objects in one Page
Message-ID: <t2m185b16f71005022318uca8d5f5bva297a72f16d2eb52@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I would like to know that if create 10 - 12 separate canvas in one page will
the browser work properly. Each canvas will have one complex animated layer
for a dashboard kind of thing. Does HTML 5 and browsers like Firefox, Google
Chrome, Safari support multiple canvas in one page without any performance
degradation.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From saurabh at skjworld.com  Mon May  3 03:40:20 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 16:10:20 +0530
Subject: [html5] Pasteboard support in HTML 5
Message-ID: <l2j185b16f71005030340yab0621dbtd5e7d3278080cc71@mail.gmail.com>

WebKit defines a pasteboard which gives the following 6 events:

   -

   onbeforecut
   -

   oncut
   -

   onbeforecopy
   -

   oncopy
   -

   onbeforepaste
   -

   onpaste

I could not find these in WHATWG HTML 5 index. Are they available in some
other form in HTML 5 or will HTML 5 not support them.

Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From eitanadlerlist at gmail.com  Tue May  4 13:21:12 2010
From: eitanadlerlist at gmail.com (Eitan Adler)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 23:21:12 +0300
Subject: [html5] inline lists - correct markup?
Message-ID: <AANLkTilOuPCV5YmQjczf5JRBo5NAKN6F7HbMMlPed59O@mail.gmail.com>

What is the appropriate way to mark up inline lists?
Something like:
"I went to the store and bought eggs, cheese, and milk."
or
"I added three things in order to help: blah, deblah, and more blah"

I could imagine something like
<style>
.il {
display:inline;
list-style-type:none;
}
</style>
I went to the store and bought <ul class="il"><li class="il">eggs,
</li><li class="il">cheese, </li><li class="il">and milk.</li></ul>
which seems a bit much.

Are <ul> and <ol> not meant to be used in this way?

From tatham at oddie.com.au  Wed May  5 18:22:59 2010
From: tatham at oddie.com.au (Tatham Oddie)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:22:59 -0400
Subject: [html5] Multiple Canvas objects in one Page
In-Reply-To: <t2m185b16f71005022318uca8d5f5bva297a72f16d2eb52@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2m185b16f71005022318uca8d5f5bva297a72f16d2eb52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8F713F6B2CE37349BBD122288FBD0154856C6A67@MBX02.netplexity.local>

This is a pretty open ended question, with the answer dependent upon exactly
what you're rendering into the canvas and each of the browser's
implementations.

 

IE9 is definitely targeting hardware accelerated rendering, however they
only have SVG support and not canvas.

 

FF have been showing some hardware acceleration, however I'm not sure what
areas they are focussing this on.

 

I have no idea about WebKit's (Chrome + Safari) progress in this area.

 

 

--

Tatham Oddie

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie

 

From: help-bounces at lists.whatwg.org [mailto:help-bounces at lists.whatwg.org]
On Behalf Of Saurabh Jain
Sent: Monday, 3 May 2010 4:18 PM
To: help at lists.whatwg.org
Subject: [html5] Multiple Canvas objects in one Page

 

Hi,

 

I would like to know that if create 10 - 12 separate canvas in one page will
the browser work properly. Each canvas will have one complex animated layer
for a dashboard kind of thing. Does HTML 5 and browsers like Firefox, Google
Chrome, Safari support multiple canvas in one page without any performance
degradation.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me

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From jai.ism at gmail.com  Wed May  5 18:27:49 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:27:49 -0700
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
Message-ID: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem or
clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage object. I
am curious how can I determine which object has changed from within the
onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function called because
localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object changed. storageArea
attribute to event object does not help.

-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From mgainty at hotmail.com  Wed May  5 18:33:02 2010
From: mgainty at hotmail.com (Martin Gainty)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:33:02 -0400
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU142-W1B39FB3839E583B79EF6AAEF50@phx.gbl>


you'll need a event listener which is hooked as a callback mechanism to respond to mouse or key events..information on events and how to hook listeners is discussed here
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-registration-html40

greetings,
Martin Gainty 
______________________________________________ 
Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de d?ni et de confidentialit?
 
Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
Ce message est confidentiel et peut ?tre privil?gi?. Si vous n'?tes pas le destinataire pr?vu, nous te demandons avec bont? que pour satisfaire informez l'exp?diteur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autoris?e ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert ? l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet l?galement obligatoire. ?tant donn? que les email peuvent facilement ?tre sujets ? la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilit? pour le contenu fourni.




Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:27:49 -0700
From: jai.ism at gmail.com
To: help at whatwg.org
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event

Hello,
I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem or clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage object. I am curious how can I determine which object has changed from within the onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function called because localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object changed. storageArea attribute to event object does not help.

-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
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From jai.ism at gmail.com  Wed May  5 18:39:14 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:39:14 -0700
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <BLU142-W1B39FB3839E583B79EF6AAEF50@phx.gbl>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU142-W1B39FB3839E583B79EF6AAEF50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <y2mb6958bd81005051839z97d120d0la3575aa21ae8503c@mail.gmail.com>

Right, I attach an event listener for the storage event like this:

addHandler(window,"storage",OnStorageHandler);

where addHandler attaches my OnStorageHandler function to storage event
type. Question is now how do I determine which object (localStorage or
sessionStorage) has changed from within the OnStorageHandler function.

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Martin Gainty <mgainty at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  you'll need a event listener which is hooked as a callback mechanism to
> respond to mouse or key events..information on events and how to hook
> listeners is discussed here
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-registration-html40
>
> greetings,
> Martin Gainty
> ______________________________________________
> Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de d?ni et de confidentialit?
>
> Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene
> Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte
> Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht
> dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine
> rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von
> E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
>
> Ce message est confidentiel et peut ?tre privil?gi?. Si vous n'?tes pas le destinataire pr?vu, nous te demandons avec bont? que pour satisfaire informez l'exp?diteur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autoris?e ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert ? l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet l?galement obligatoire. ?tant donn? que les email peuvent facilement ?tre sujets ? la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilit? pour le contenu fourni.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:27:49 -0700
>
> From: jai.ism at gmail.com
> To: help at whatwg.org
> Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem or
> clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage object. I
> am curious how can I determine which object has changed from within the
> onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function called because
> localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object changed. storageArea
> attribute to event object does not help.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Jaikishan
>
> ------------------------------
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
> inbox. See how.<http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2>
>



-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From ian at hixie.ch  Wed May  5 19:00:33 2010
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 02:00:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005060159130.8532@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Wed, 5 May 2010, Jaikishan Jalan wrote:
> 
> I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem 
> or clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage 
> object. I am curious how can I determine which object has changed from 
> within the onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function 
> called because localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object 
> changed. storageArea attribute to event object does not help.

You should be able to compare the storageArea attribute of the event 
against the localStorage and sessionStorage objects.

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

From jai.ism at gmail.com  Thu May  6 10:21:21 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:21:21 -0700
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005060159130.8532@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005060159130.8532@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <z2pb6958bd81005061021v63ec0203pad93eb56037b20cf@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Ian.  Yes, it does work. I was checking it in wrong way in my event
handler. The following works

    function OnStorageHandler() {
        if (event.storageArea == localStorage) {
            alert("localstorage");
        } else {
            if (event.storageArea == sessionStorage) {
                alert("sessionStorage");
            }
        }
    }

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:00 PM, Ian Hickson <ian at hixie.ch> wrote:

> On Wed, 5 May 2010, Jaikishan Jalan wrote:
> >
> > I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem
> > or clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage
> > object. I am curious how can I determine which object has changed from
> > within the onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function
> > called because localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object
> > changed. storageArea attribute to event object does not help.
>
> You should be able to compare the storageArea attribute of the event
> against the localStorage and sessionStorage objects.
>
> --
> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
> Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>



-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From eitanadlerlist at gmail.com  Thu May  6 11:25:44 2010
From: eitanadlerlist at gmail.com (Eitan Adler)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 21:25:44 +0300
Subject: [html5] <nav> and skiplinks
Message-ID: <q2qa0777e081005061125w435ce859v1965298ed43b76d6@mail.gmail.com>

Now that we have the <nav> element is it necessary to use skip links
for accessibility?

From jai.ism at gmail.com  Thu May  6 21:07:42 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 21:07:42 -0700
Subject: [html5] Draggable API dragend event
Message-ID: <h2gb6958bd81005062107gf6060c3dz7c4ef563bc964f34@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am curious how to determine if the drop event was successful in the
dragend event. In the example shown
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/, it remove the element on
dragend event. I want to drop the selected element only if the drop was
successful. On way is to do this ondrop event. But I feel like dragend is
really the place to do it.

-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From saurabh at skjworld.com  Sun May  9 03:52:37 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 16:22:37 +0530
Subject: [html5] 2D Canvas
Message-ID: <t2u185b16f71005090352q9f2e32b7t629dad3e55c71179@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Can anybody please tell me that if my software has the rectangle from x : 0,
y : 0 to x : 100 and Y : 100 in Java and I am porting it to HTML 5 Canvas
then should I add 0.5 to my coordinates or subtract to get a crisp rectangle
and keeping it still compatible with my Java graphics model? Taking whole
numbers is diffusing the rectangle stroke. In HTML 5 Canvas the coordinate
system starts at 0.5 or -0.5?
Also please can you tell me what is the reason for taking this diffusing
model where 50% stroke color goes to left coordinate and 50% goes towards
right coordinate. Does it not create a barrier to porting Java based
graphical applications since Java has no concept of co-ordinates at 0.5
pixels or its multiples.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From eltdav at gmail.com  Sun May  9 04:09:56 2010
From: eltdav at gmail.com (elton Davids)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 09:09:56 -0200
Subject: [html5] Seek employment
Message-ID: <AANLkTili3e71zet2KnJ3KSiVDApveMrQGLyakBEL4lqG@mail.gmail.com>

Do u people help with finding employment

From excors at gmail.com  Sun May  9 06:52:29 2010
From: excors at gmail.com (Philip Taylor)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 14:52:29 +0100
Subject: [html5] 2D Canvas
In-Reply-To: <t2u185b16f71005090352q9f2e32b7t629dad3e55c71179@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2u185b16f71005090352q9f2e32b7t629dad3e55c71179@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimXwU2NoW2plvLyX1MOTj14baeYB1UUkhXO2QWN@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Saurabh Jain <saurabh at skjworld.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> Can anybody please tell me that if my software has the rectangle from x : 0,
> y : 0 to x : 100 and Y : 100 in Java and I am porting it to HTML 5 Canvas
> then should I add 0.5 to my coordinates or subtract to get a crisp rectangle
> and keeping it still compatible with my Java graphics model? Taking whole
> numbers is diffusing the rectangle stroke. In HTML 5 Canvas the coordinate
> system starts at 0.5 or -0.5?

It starts at 0. Quoting from http://diveintohtml5.org/canvas.html :

  "Imagine each pixel as a large square. The whole-number coordinates
(0, 1, 2?) are the edges of the squares. If you draw a one-unit-wide
line between whole-number coordinates, it will overlap opposite sides
of the pixel square, and the resulting line will be drawn two pixels
wide. To draw a line that is only one pixel wide, you need to shift
the coordinates by 0.5 perpendicular to the line's direction."

The same applies to rectangles. If you're drawing a filled rectangle
then you want to use whole numbers for the corners, so the shape fills
the whole of the edge pixels; but if you're drawing a stroked
rectangle then you want to add 0.5, so the stroke lines are centered
in the middle of the edge pixels rather than overlapping two rows of
pixels.

-- 
Philip Taylor
excors at gmail.com

From saurabh at skjworld.com  Mon May 10 01:11:20 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:41:20 +0530
Subject: [html5] Implementation of Text in Canvas inside Chrome and Firefox
Message-ID: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

There are multiple issues in setting font in Chrome and Firefox inside
Canvas. We are not able to set it as per WHATWG HTML 5 specification. Can
anybody let me know where to report these issues. Also till when is Canvas
expected to be completely supported in all major browsers specially Chrome
and Firefox.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From hendry at iki.fi  Mon May 10 01:17:14 2010
From: hendry at iki.fi (Kai Hendry)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:17:14 +0100
Subject: [html5] Implementation of Text in Canvas inside Chrome and
	Firefox
In-Reply-To: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilTbd5JaHz5_27POV0rwOh6QV3218rNc2xp3KuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Report the bugs on their respective bug tracking systems.

http://webkit.org/quality/reporting.html
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/

I have encountered an odd canvas problem myself:
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33968

From srdubey at gmail.com  Tue May 11 01:34:45 2010
From: srdubey at gmail.com (Santosh Dube)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:04:45 +0530
Subject: [html5] Implementation of Text in Canvas inside Chrome and
	Firefox
In-Reply-To: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinsWhYHpxBPJEWrBKfjDfsl2jMimmnFNuF4E-Ci@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Saurabh,

Currently HTML 5 not supported by all browser because it is currently a
working draft.
HTMl 5 Canvas tag supported by Fireforx 3.5, IE 9 and opera brrowsers.

Thanks & regards
Santosh Dube

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Saurabh Jain <saurabh at skjworld.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There are multiple issues in setting font in Chrome and Firefox inside
> Canvas. We are not able to set it as per WHATWG HTML 5 specification. Can
> anybody let me know where to report these issues. Also till when is Canvas
> expected to be completely supported in all major browsers specially Chrome
> and Firefox.
>
> --
> Saurabh Jain
> Director
> SKJ Technologies Private Limited
> http://www.skjworld.com
> Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
> http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>


-- 
Thanks & Regards,

Santosh Dube
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From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Wed May 12 10:27:54 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:27:54 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>

Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to
semantically separate my app's content from it's UI chrome. I could use
<form> but then even clicking a simple <button> submits the form's data when
what I'm creating is more of a stateful toolbar than a proper form.

To that end, is there something like <ui> already available, or in the
works, or a better solution that I'm not aware of?

Thanks,
Darcy Murphy
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From nziarek at gmail.com  Wed May 12 11:02:28 2010
From: nziarek at gmail.com (Nathan Ziarek)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:02:28 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B3DD6583-5330-416D-B8DB-745317A0DBE8@gmail.com>

I think, between the <nav>,<header>, and <footer> elements, HTML5 is  
looking pretty good for non-content page chrome.

Is there a scenario where these three elements don't fullfill your  
needs?

--
Nathan Ziarek
Sent from my iPhone 3GS

On May 12, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to  
> semantically separate my app's content from it's UI chrome. I could  
> use <form> but then even clicking a simple <button> submits the  
> form's data when what I'm creating is more of a stateful toolbar  
> than a proper form.
>
> To that end, is there something like <ui> already available, or in  
> the works, or a better solution that I'm not aware of?
>
> Thanks,
> Darcy Murphy
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org

From sahulbert at gmail.com  Wed May 12 13:48:54 2010
From: sahulbert at gmail.com (Scott Hulbert)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:48:54 -0700
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimETeIXZdP_dFsGSbOxIfj9CiN_HMSmQZ-Pc0z8@mail.gmail.com>

You should take a look at the Web Accessibility Initiative for Accessible
Rich Internet Applications:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAI-ARIA
http://www.w3.org/standards/techs/aria

Others may have better links, but it's my understanding that this
initiative's goal is to make web apps, which is what it seems you are
building, more accessible.

Best,
Scott Hulbert

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>wrote:

> Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to
> semantically separate my app's content from it's UI chrome. I could use
> <form> but then even clicking a simple <button> submits the form's data when
> what I'm creating is more of a stateful toolbar than a proper form.
>
> To that end, is there something like <ui> already available, or in the
> works, or a better solution that I'm not aware of?
>
> Thanks,
> Darcy Murphy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>
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From paradisaeidae at gmail.com  Wed May 12 16:31:28 2010
From: paradisaeidae at gmail.com (Mark T)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:31:28 +1000
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>

Ti group has been working on this issue:
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/XGR/

MarkT

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Recently I?came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag?in order to
--

From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Thu May 13 06:11:29 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 08:11:29 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>

Scott, Mark,

Thanks for the links.

ARIA is a great project because it works with what we already have in order
to produce better results but Accessibility, in and of itself, is not
exactly what I'm after. The XGR stuff looks interesting as well, but
overkill.

My biggest issue with web app development is that there is no line between
content and chrome. Ideally I'd love to see this:

<ui>
  <label>...</label>
  <input ... />
  ...
  <form ...>
    <label>...</label>
    <input ... />
    <input type="submit" />
  </form>
</ui>

Where the <ui> element can be hooked into by user agents and assistive
technologies to provide the same additional functionality that a <form> can
provide, but without requiring a submission to the server, and it can
contain multiple forms if necessary. With HTML5 being principled on
improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that in
this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having to
invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed. From what I
gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
creation.

I personally think that a <ui> tag could be a spiritual cousin to the newly
added <section>, <header>, <footer>, and <nav> elements. But I'm also aware
we're in the final call for comments, so I'm not expecting anyone to jump
through hoops for my idea. Thanks for listening and discussing the idea
though.

- Darcy

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Mark T <paradisaeidae at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ti group has been working on this issue:
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/XGR/
>
> MarkT
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to
> --
>
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From nziarek at gmail.com  Thu May 13 07:11:08 2010
From: nziarek at gmail.com (Nathan Ziarek)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:11:08 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>

> From what I
> gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> creation.

You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.

> With HTML5 being principled on
> improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that in
> this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having to
> invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.

This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.

I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
doesn't quite line up with my expectations.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?

From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Thu May 13 08:41:38 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:41:38 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>

Mostly I'm being an overly picky perfectionist, but in my opinion the
separation of content and chrome is where HTML falls apart from an
application development perspective. HTML5 was originally intended "to
address the need for one coherent development environment
for Web Applications" (
http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000005.html)
and it has made enormous strides towards that, so please don't think that
I'm discounting anything that's been done so far. However I feel strongly
that it's not quite as useful as it could be, and this one little tag that
I'm arguing for would do it (for me).

For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The toolbar
is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't
submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm
working with. For something as complex as http://280slides.com you can
clearly see that the only actual "document" on the page is the slide you're
currently working on, everything else is purely UI Chrome and I believe it
should be marked up as such, not as the ridiculous <div> soup that it is.

I think I understand what you're saying regarding HTML Documents having no
notion of AJAX and to a point I agree, but by that argument they also have
no notion of Javascript and to discount the importance of the new JS API's
in HTML5 would be wrong. Web apps aren't web apps these days without JS, and
subsequently, AJAX.

In order to build web apps properly we've been taught that pages need to
work over, around, and despite a wide array of inconsistently available
functionality ? that's the reality we live with in order to have extremely
interoperable apps (a computing achievement that shouldn't be looked down
upon). The additional tags in HTML5 don't violate that, and I don't believe
that a <ui> tag would either. All I'm thinking is that a subtle realignment
and enhancement regarding what part of an HTML document is content and which
part is chrome would be extremely valuable not only to us as developers but
also to our site's users.

- Darcy

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com> wrote:

> > From what I
> > gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> > creation.
>
> You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
> documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.
>
> > With HTML5 being principled on
> > improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that
> in
> > this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having
> to
> > invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.
>
> This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
> application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
> While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
> to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.
>
> I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
> that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
> be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
> elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
> change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
> doesn't quite line up with my expectations.
>
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?
>
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From nziarek at gmail.com  Thu May 13 09:07:51 2010
From: nziarek at gmail.com (Nathan Ziarek)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:07:51 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinIyDdD66E6ypvxYUIenAc9TFTTTGgSyx8AD8_7@mail.gmail.com>

For the record, I'm in favor of something like a <ui> element, I just
have no need for it :)

I tend to think of the elements of HTML5 in two camps: content (<p>,
<ul>, <h#>) and chrome (<nav>, <header>).

The content side of the equation has generic, non-semantic elements
(<span> and <div>) that can be used for any styling purpose.

It doesn't seem as if the chrome side has a generic, non-semantic
element for using the same way. That's where I think your <ui>
suggestion fits in: an open use element that indicates to any agent
that the stuff inside isn't part of the content.

Where I think we disagree is that the <ui> element should affect the
baseline actions of the content within. A <form> within a <ui> should
still submit as a page refresh unless rerouted by JS.

You are probably right that it's too late in the game to have
something like this added now, but it certainly isn't a bad idea. Keep
it around for HTML6 :)

nz

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mostly I'm being an overly picky perfectionist, but in my opinion the
> separation of content and chrome is where HTML falls apart from an
> application development perspective. HTML5 was originally intended "to
> address the need for one coherent development environment
> for Web Applications"
> (http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000005.html)
> and it has made enormous strides towards that, so please don't think that
> I'm discounting anything that's been done so far. However I feel strongly
> that it's not quite as useful as it could be, and this one little tag that
> I'm arguing for would do it (for me).
> For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The toolbar
> is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't
> submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm
> working with. For something as complex as http://280slides.com you can
> clearly see that the only actual "document" on the page is the slide you're
> currently working on, everything else is purely UI Chrome and I believe it
> should be marked up as such, not as the ridiculous <div> soup that it is.
> I think I understand what you're saying regarding HTML Documents having no
> notion of AJAX and to a point I agree, but by that argument they also have
> no notion of Javascript and to discount the importance of the new JS API's
> in HTML5 would be wrong. Web apps aren't web apps these days without JS, and
> subsequently, AJAX.
> In order to build web apps properly we've been taught that pages need to
> work over, around, and despite a wide array of inconsistently available
> functionality ? that's the reality we live with in order to have extremely
> interoperable apps (a computing achievement that shouldn't be looked down
> upon). The additional tags in HTML5 don't violate that, and I don't believe
> that a <ui> tag would either. All I'm thinking?is that a subtle realignment
> and enhancement regarding what part of an HTML document is content and which
> part is chrome would be extremely valuable not only to us as developers but
> also to our site's users.
> - Darcy
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > From what I
>> > gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
>> > creation.
>>
>> You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
>> documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.
>>
>> > With HTML5 being principled on
>> > improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that
>> > in
>> > this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having
>> > to
>> > invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.
>>
>> This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
>> application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
>> While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
>> to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.
>>
>> I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
>> that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
>> be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
>> elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
>> change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
>> doesn't quite line up with my expectations.
>>
>> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?
>
>

From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Thu May 13 09:44:08 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:44:08 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinIyDdD66E6ypvxYUIenAc9TFTTTGgSyx8AD8_7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinIyDdD66E6ypvxYUIenAc9TFTTTGgSyx8AD8_7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimDW-rT-1METodoE9JaWltoBGpJg_sFJPOrwRDX@mail.gmail.com>

Yup, right on. All of it, even the <form> within a <ui> bit.

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com> wrote:

> For the record, I'm in favor of something like a <ui> element, I just
> have no need for it :)
>
> I tend to think of the elements of HTML5 in two camps: content (<p>,
> <ul>, <h#>) and chrome (<nav>, <header>).
>
> The content side of the equation has generic, non-semantic elements
> (<span> and <div>) that can be used for any styling purpose.
>
> It doesn't seem as if the chrome side has a generic, non-semantic
> element for using the same way. That's where I think your <ui>
> suggestion fits in: an open use element that indicates to any agent
> that the stuff inside isn't part of the content.
>
> Where I think we disagree is that the <ui> element should affect the
> baseline actions of the content within. A <form> within a <ui> should
> still submit as a page refresh unless rerouted by JS.
>
> You are probably right that it's too late in the game to have
> something like this added now, but it certainly isn't a bad idea. Keep
> it around for HTML6 :)
>
> nz
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Mostly I'm being an overly picky perfectionist, but in my opinion the
> > separation of content and chrome is where HTML falls apart from an
> > application development perspective. HTML5 was originally intended "to
> > address the need for one coherent development environment
> > for Web Applications"
> > (
> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000005.html)
> > and it has made enormous strides towards that, so please don't think that
> > I'm discounting anything that's been done so far. However I feel strongly
> > that it's not quite as useful as it could be, and this one little tag
> that
> > I'm arguing for would do it (for me).
> > For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The
> toolbar
> > is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't
> > submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm
> > working with. For something as complex as http://280slides.com you can
> > clearly see that the only actual "document" on the page is the slide
> you're
> > currently working on, everything else is purely UI Chrome and I believe
> it
> > should be marked up as such, not as the ridiculous <div> soup that it is.
> > I think I understand what you're saying regarding HTML Documents having
> no
> > notion of AJAX and to a point I agree, but by that argument they also
> have
> > no notion of Javascript and to discount the importance of the new JS
> API's
> > in HTML5 would be wrong. Web apps aren't web apps these days without JS,
> and
> > subsequently, AJAX.
> > In order to build web apps properly we've been taught that pages need to
> > work over, around, and despite a wide array of inconsistently available
> > functionality ? that's the reality we live with in order to have
> extremely
> > interoperable apps (a computing achievement that shouldn't be looked down
> > upon). The additional tags in HTML5 don't violate that, and I don't
> believe
> > that a <ui> tag would either. All I'm thinking is that a subtle
> realignment
> > and enhancement regarding what part of an HTML document is content and
> which
> > part is chrome would be extremely valuable not only to us as developers
> but
> > also to our site's users.
> > - Darcy
> > On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > From what I
> >> > gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> >> > creation.
> >>
> >> You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
> >> documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.
> >>
> >> > With HTML5 being principled on
> >> > improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd
> that
> >> > in
> >> > this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without
> having
> >> > to
> >> > invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.
> >>
> >> This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
> >> application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
> >> While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
> >> to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.
> >>
> >> I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
> >> that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
> >> be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
> >> elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
> >> change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
> >> doesn't quite line up with my expectations.
> >>
> >> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?
> >
> >
>
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From sagara1337 at gmail.com  Thu May 13 10:13:11 2010
From: sagara1337 at gmail.com (Sagara)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 20:13:11 +0300
Subject: [html5] How do you overcome the HTML form nesting limitation?
Message-ID: <AANLkTilJiXtzid4OxQS4uf6jtzd1-4nIv8MbChxqL26H@mail.gmail.com>

1. Why we don't allow nested forms in HTML5?

Problem is originally described at
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/597596/how-do-you-overcome-the-html-form-nesting-limitation
*In short author says:*

You are making a blog app and you have a form with some fields for creating
a new post and a toolbar with "actions" like "Save", "Delete", "Cancel".
Our objective is to write the form in a way that doesn't require javascript,
just plain old html form and submit buttons.
Since the action url is defined in the Form tag and not in each individual
submit button, our only option is to post to a generic url and then start
"if...then...else" to determine the name of the button that was submitted.
Not very elegant, but our only choice, since we don't want to rely on
javascript.

The only problem is that pressing "Delete", will submit ALL the form fields
on the server even though the only thing needed for this action is a Hidden
input with the post-id. Not very big deal in this small example, but I have
forms with hundreds (so to speak) of fields and tabs in my LOB applications
that (because of requirements) have to submit everything in one-go and in
any case this seems very inefficient and a waste. If form nesting was
supported, I would at least be able to wrap the "Delete" submit button
inside it's own form with only the post-id field.
---

One answer was to re-design the app so users could delete items without
opening them...
Another answer was to have the forms side by side on the page, but not
nested. then use CSS to make all the buttons line up pretty. But... it is "too
hackish. Plus in a very large page ... it's almost impossible to completely
separate the elements' screen position from their position in the document".
*2. So, is there any elegant solution in HTML5, without JavaScript, and with
several buttons to submit different sets of input fields (to the same or
different URL(s)?*
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From paradisaeidae at gmail.com  Thu May 13 15:01:32 2010
From: paradisaeidae at gmail.com (Mark T)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 08:01:32 +1000
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikZBeVMgeAwZKPgRSvyCJdBXCrfgmW1-iIzVrIZ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Darcy,
The 'html5 spec' is a subset of W3C and WHATWG suggestions.
One of the forms directions of the W3C is xforms.
In the direction you are asking for.
I've been trialling some javascript 'implants' of this.
As it is not likely to be part of browsers for a while.
Being a namespace implementation. it does not link .immediately. with
libs such as jquery.
Namespace is a handy thing.

http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms (Cannot get this
working in FFox...).
http://sourceforge.net/projects/xsltforms/ (Impressive, works 4 me in
FFox, mime-type issue in others (for me)).
http://www.w3.org/TR/XForms-for-HTML/

MarkT




On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Scott, Mark,
> Thanks for the links.
> ARIA is a great project because it works with what we already have in order
> to produce better results but Accessibility, in and of itself, is not
> exactly what I'm after. The XGR stuff looks interesting as well, but
> overkill.
> My biggest issue with web app development is that there is no line between
> content and chrome. Ideally I'd love to see this:
> <ui>
> ??<label>...</label>
> ??<input ... />
> ??...
> ??<form ...>
> ?? ?<label>...</label>
> ?? ?<input ... />
> ?? ?<input type="submit" />
> ??</form>
> </ui>
> Where the <ui> element can be hooked into by user agents and assistive
> technologies to provide the same additional functionality that a <form> can
> provide, but without requiring a submission to the server, and it can
> contain multiple forms if necessary. With HTML5 being principled on
> improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that in
> this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having to
> invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed. From what I
> gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> creation.
> I personally think that a <ui> tag could be a spiritual cousin to the newly
> added <section>, <header>, <footer>, and <nav> elements. But I'm also aware
> we're in the final call for comments, so I'm not expecting anyone to jump
> through hoops for my idea. Thanks for listening and discussing the idea
> though.
> - Darcy
> On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Mark T <paradisaeidae at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ti group has been working on this issue:
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/XGR/
>>
>> MarkT
>>
>> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Recently I?came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag?in order to
>> --
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>



-- 
(+61 4) 0679 5734
skype: govirtual.com.au
?????????Jingle ?!
It's a Jingle Out There!

From sagara1337 at gmail.com  Fri May 14 00:05:56 2010
From: sagara1337 at gmail.com (Sagara)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:05:56 +0300
Subject: [html5] How do you overcome the HTML form nesting limitation?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilJiXtzid4OxQS4uf6jtzd1-4nIv8MbChxqL26H@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilJiXtzid4OxQS4uf6jtzd1-4nIv8MbChxqL26H@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimlB1zAB-xRWdpLZQg8S8nU_hPO52EzmRoEjTyh@mail.gmail.com>

Form attribute (form owner) from HTML5 seems to solve the case.

Also I found interesting note
http://anderwald.info/internet/nesting-form-tags-in-xhtml/ - that (X)HTML
disallows nesting forms like "form > form", but allows "form > fieldset >
form", W3 validator <http://validator.w3.org/> says it is valid, but
browsers does not quite support this.

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 20:13, Sagara <sagara1337 at gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. Why we don't allow nested forms in HTML5?
>
> Problem is originally described at
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/597596/how-do-you-overcome-the-html-form-nesting-limitation
> *In short author says:*
>
> You are making a blog app and you have a form with some fields for creating
> a new post and a toolbar with "actions" like "Save", "Delete", "Cancel".
> Our objective is to write the form in a way that doesn't require
> javascript, just plain old html form and submit buttons.
> Since the action url is defined in the Form tag and not in each individual
> submit button, our only option is to post to a generic url and then start
> "if...then...else" to determine the name of the button that was submitted.
> Not very elegant, but our only choice, since we don't want to rely on
> javascript.
>
> The only problem is that pressing "Delete", will submit ALL the form fields
> on the server even though the only thing needed for this action is a Hidden
> input with the post-id. Not very big deal in this small example, but I have
> forms with hundreds (so to speak) of fields and tabs in my LOB applications
> that (because of requirements) have to submit everything in one-go and in
> any case this seems very inefficient and a waste. If form nesting was
> supported, I would at least be able to wrap the "Delete" submit button
> inside it's own form with only the post-id field.
> ---
>
> One answer was to re-design the app so users could delete items without
> opening them...
> Another answer was to have the forms side by side on the page, but not
> nested. then use CSS to make all the buttons line up pretty. But... it is "too
> hackish. Plus in a very large page ... it's almost impossible to completely
> separate the elements' screen position from their position in the document".
> *2. So, is there any elegant solution in HTML5, without JavaScript, and
> with several buttons to submit different sets of input fields (to the same
> or different URL(s)?*
>
>
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From designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk  Fri May 14 03:34:33 2010
From: designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk (designer)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 11:34:33 +0100
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
Message-ID: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>

Sorry if this is obvious, but a page I'm working on won't validate because 
of the mail link.

The validation error message is:

 Bad value mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem with 
RSPCA site
for attribute href on element a: WHITESPACE in QUERY.

the cut and pasted code is as follows:

<dd>N.B. If you have found a link which doesn't work, do please
        <a href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem 
with RSPCA site">TELL US</a>
        us about it</dd>

What am I doing wrong here? I've googled, but to no avail.

Thanks,

Bob 




From robertc at boogdesign.com  Fri May 14 04:02:15 2010
From: robertc at boogdesign.com (Rob Crowther)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:02:15 +0100
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
References: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
Message-ID: <4BED2DB7.1080808@boogdesign.com>

designer wrote:
>        <a href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem 
> with RSPCA site">TELL US</a>
> 
Use URL encoding:

<a href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?
subject=problem%20with%20RSPCA%20site">TELL US</a>

(Linebreak for formatting, should be all on one line)

> What am I doing wrong here? I've googled, but to no avail.
>
http://www.eskimo.com/~bloo/indexdot/html/topics/urlencoding.htm

Rob

From arlen.walker at gmail.com  Fri May 14 08:08:47 2010
From: arlen.walker at gmail.com (Arlen Walker)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:08:47 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BBAEF806-731B-4BD3-A8D2-062608F31D7D@gmail.com>


On May 13, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Darcy Murphy wrote:

> For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The toolbar is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm working with.

OK, isn't that sort of thing what <menu> and <command> are supposed to be for? Or am I not understanding something here?

Have Fun,
Arlen

------------------------------
In God we trust, all others must supply data


From robertc at boogdesign.com  Sun May 16 11:23:36 2010
From: robertc at boogdesign.com (Rob Crowther)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 19:23:36 +0100
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <000301caf520$bf0f9af0$0b01a8c0@gam>
References: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
	<4BED2DB7.1080808@boogdesign.com>
	<000301caf520$bf0f9af0$0b01a8c0@gam>
Message-ID: <4BF03828.8080107@boogdesign.com>

On 16/05/10 18:53, designer wrote:
> Thanks Rob, that fixed it. However, no-one has commented on the fact
> that the spaces are allowed in XHTML1.1? That's what confused me!
>

I would guess: the XHTML 1.1 spec allows a space separated list of URLs 
on the href attribute, whereas HTML5 allows only a single URL which may 
be surrounded by spaces.

Someone more familiar with XHTML 1.1 might know better.

Rob

From hsivonen at iki.fi  Mon May 17 04:33:49 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 04:33:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
Message-ID: <1078143545.202250.1274096029917.JavaMail.root@cm-mail03.mozilla.org>

"designer" <designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk> wrote:

> Sorry if this is obvious, but a page I'm working on won't validate
> because 
> of the mail link.
> 
> The validation error message is:
> 
>  Bad value mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem
> with 
> RSPCA site
> for attribute href on element a: WHITESPACE in QUERY.
> 
> the cut and pasted code is as follows:
> 
> <dd>N.B. If you have found a link which doesn't work, do please
>         <a
> href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem 
> with RSPCA site">TELL US</a>
>         us about it</dd>
> 
> What am I doing wrong here? I've googled, but to no avail.

According to the URI spec, you should escape space as %20 in URLs.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/

From hsivonen at iki.fi  Mon May 17 04:36:29 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 04:36:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <4BF03828.8080107@boogdesign.com>
Message-ID: <1159138174.202254.1274096189772.JavaMail.root@cm-mail03.mozilla.org>

"Rob Crowther" <robertc at boogdesign.com> wrote:

> On 16/05/10 18:53, designer wrote:
> > Thanks Rob, that fixed it. However, no-one has commented on the
> fact
> > that the spaces are allowed in XHTML1.1? That's what confused me!
> >
> 
> I would guess: the XHTML 1.1 spec allows a space separated list of
> URLs 
> on the href attribute, whereas HTML5 allows only a single URL which
> may 
> be surrounded by spaces.
> 
> Someone more familiar with XHTML 1.1 might know better.

XHTML 1.1 has less advance validation tools available for it, so the URL syntax is not checked.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/

From csolisr at gmail.com  Sat May 22 20:02:45 2010
From: csolisr at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Carlos_Andr=E9s_Sol=EDs?=)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 21:02:45 -0600
Subject: [html5] About possible formats for multiple audio and subtitle
	streams for HTML5
Message-ID: <AANLkTimrqJlDXLxWfWHvVNWLMGEu1l4rikDfbxNmSOdx@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, I've been writing lately in the WHATWG and WebM mail-lists and would
like to hear your opinion on the following idea.
Imagine a hypothetical website that delivers videos in multiple languages.
Like on a DVD, where you can choose your audio and subtitles language. And
also imagine there is the possibility of downloading a file with the video,
along with either the chosen audio/sub tracks, or all of them at once. Right
now, though, there's no way to deliver multiple audio and subtitle streams
on HTML5 and WebM. Since the latter supports only one audio and one video
track, with no embedded subtitles, creating a file with multiple tracks is
impossible, unless using full Matroska instead of WebM - save for the fact
that the standard proposed is WebM and not Matroska.
A solution could be to stream the full Matroska with all tracks embedded.
This, though, would be inefficient, since the user often will select only
one language to view the video, and there's no way yet to stream only the
selected tracks to the user. I have thought of two solutions for this:
* Solution 1: Server-side demuxing. The video with all tracks is stored as a
Matroska file. The server demuxes the file, generates a new one with the
chosen tracks, and streams only the tracks chosen by the user. When the user
chooses to download the full video, the full Matroska file is downloaded
with no overhead. The downside is the server-side demuxing and remuxing;
fortunately most users only need to choose once. Also, there's the problem
of having to download the full file instead of a file with only the tracks
wanted; this could be solved by even more muxing.
* Solution 2: User-side muxing. Each track (video, audio, subtitles) is
stored in standalone files. The server streams the tracks chosen by the
user, and the web browser muxes them back. When the user chooses to download
the video, the generation of the file can be done either server-side or
client-side. This can be very dynamic but will force content providers to
use extra coding inside of the pages.

Now for part two, there is still an issue on which format should be used for
subtitling. As you might know, there are basic subtitle formats that are
formed by timed plain text and little else (like SRT or the proposed
WebSRT), and there are full-blown subtitle formats that allow for extreme
formatting and typesetting (like Advanced SubStation Alpha). The basic
subtitles have the advantage of being easily editable by hand, but
sacrificing capabilities that advanced formats allow with the cost of
harder-to-understand syntax. It would be a shame to drop advanced subtitles
from the HTML5 specs, but it would be bothersome if everybody is forced to
use a complex-to-write format. So a middle ground could be handy: allowing
WebSRT for the simple tasks, and using another format for advanced
typesetting. To put an example, ASSA allows to modify the text font, size,
border, shadow, scale, rotation, position, and some other properties; it
also allows movement of text, text animation, karaoke, and even some
vectorial graphing. But all of that could be achieved with HTML5 programming
on top of the WebSRT format (or whichever gets chosen). This, of course,
causes a pair of problems.
* The first one is that there would be no tools to edit HTML5 subtitles
specifically, forcing to make a type of subset which would have to be
standardized, plus an editor to be able to create such subtitles without
having to learn how to create a full-blown website.
* The second one is that media players that wanted to use such subtitles
would be forced to ship an HTML5 decoder. Most media players are NOT web
browsers, though, or based on one either. The only exceptions I remember are
media players built on top of XUL, like Songbird or Nightingale. But players
like WMP, WinAmp, VLC, Xine family, GStreamer family or MPlayer family would
be left out, since they have no need (and no time) to plug in a web browser
in a program that hasn't needed it.

And that would be the end of my brainstorming. Any ideas or suggestions?
- Carlos Sol?s
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From davidjohnburrowes at gmail.com  Thu May 27 09:53:59 2010
From: davidjohnburrowes at gmail.com (David John Burrowes)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 09:53:59 -0700
Subject: [html5] Newbie question about SharedWorkers
Message-ID: <D101908A-9CA4-4FC0-A90E-B8E6F8FAB006@gmail.com>

Hello all,

I'm making my way through the spec about Workers, and have a question about SharedWorkers.


The spec makes various references to shared workers being used by multiple pages in parallel.  My question is can a shared worker be used by two sequentially accessed pages?  My reading of the spec says "no", but my intuition about what behavior I would "expect" says I should be able to.  Is my reading of the spec right?

Here's an example:
	We have two pages: P1 and P2 (from the same origin etc)
	P1 has a link to P2 on it (<a href="P2">) 

	Both P1 and P2 reference a shared worker SW

	When the user gets page P1, then SW is created.
	User then clicks on the link to P2

My interpretation of the spec says that when this link is clicked, P1 will be made no longer active, so it will be removed from SW's list of Documents.  This will leave SW's list empty, which will make it no longer a permissable worker. It's closing flag will be set to true, and presumably there's a chance it will be destroyed before P2 can be loaded and access SW.  So, P2 will need to re-create SW.

It seems desirable to me that if a page transition is being made between pages with compatible origins, that a shared worker would be preserved across them, allowing complex calculations being done by the worker to be shared by the pages (obviously, the worker could be storing its work in a database, and then reloading that when it is created.  But, that seems like overkill)

Thoughts?

David


From s.brueseke at proio.com  Fri May 28 06:44:51 2010
From: s.brueseke at proio.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Swen_Br=FCseke_-_proIO_Network_=26_eSolutions_e=2EK=2E?=)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:44:51 +0200
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
Message-ID: <20100528134451.da4c5aba@mail.proio.com>

Hi mailinglist,

I need your help. I want to install validator.nu on a Debian Lenny 32bit, but during the python build/build.py all I am getting the following error:

"javac" -g -nowarn -classpath "./dependencies/commons-codec-1.3/commons-codec-1.3.jar:./dependencies/commons-httpclient-3.1/commons-httpclient-3.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-adapters-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-api-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-charsets-4_0.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-4_0.jar:./dependencies/iri-0.5/lib/iri.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/servlet-api-2.5-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-util-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/ext/jetty-ajp-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/apache-log4j-1.2.15/log4j-1.2.15.jar:./dependencies/rhino1_7R1/js.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xercesImpl.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xml-apis.jar:./dependencies/slf4j-1.5.2/slf4j-log4j12-1.5.2.jar:./dependencies/commons-fileupload-1.2.1/lib/commons-fileupload-1.2.1.jar:./dependencies/isorelax.jar:./dependencies/mozilla/intl/chardet/java/dist/lib/chardet.jar:./dependencies/saxon9.jar:./dependencies/jsontools-core-1.5.jar:./dependencies/antlr.jar:./dependencies/xom-1.1.jar:./dependencies/junit-4.4.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant-launcher.jar:jing-trang/build/jing.jar" -sourcepath "./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/src" -d "./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/classes" @temp-javac-list
Note: ./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/src/org/whattf/datatype/IriRef.java uses or overrides a deprecated API.
Note: Recompile with -Xlint:deprecation for details.
"jar" cf "./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/dist/html5-datatypes.jar" @temp-jar-list
"javac" -g -nowarn -classpath "./dependencies/commons-codec-1.3/commons-codec-1.3.jar:./dependencies/commons-httpclient-3.1/commons-httpclient-3.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-adapters-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-api-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-charsets-4_0.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-4_0.jar:./dependencies/iri-0.5/lib/iri.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/servlet-api-2.5-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-util-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/ext/jetty-ajp-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/apache-log4j-1.2.15/log4j-1.2.15.jar:./dependencies/rhino1_7R1/js.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xercesImpl.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xml-apis.jar:./dependencies/slf4j-1.5.2/slf4j-log4j12-1.5.2.jar:./dependencies/commons-fileupload-1.2.1/lib/commons-fileupload-1.2.1.jar:./dependencies/isorelax.jar:./dependencies/mozilla/intl/chardet/java/dist/lib/chardet.jar:./dependencies/saxon9.jar:./dependencies/jsontools-core-1.5.jar:./dependencies/antlr.jar:./dependencies/xom-1.1.jar:./dependencies/junit-4.4.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant-launcher.jar:./jars/html5-datatypes.jar:jing-trang/build/jing.jar" -sourcepath "./syntax/non-schema/java/src" -d "./syntax/non-schema/java/classes" @temp-javac-list
"jar" cf "./syntax/non-schema/java/dist/non-schema.jar" @temp-jar-list
"javac" -g -nowarn -classpath "./dependencies/commons-codec-1.3/commons-codec-1.3.jar:./dependencies/commons-httpclient-3.1/commons-httpclient-3.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-adapters-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-api-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-charsets-4_0.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-4_0.jar:./dependencies/iri-0.5/lib/iri.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/servlet-api-2.5-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-util-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/ext/jetty-ajp-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/apache-log4j-1.2.15/log4j-1.2.15.jar:./dependencies/rhino1_7R1/js.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xercesImpl.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xml-apis.jar:./dependencies/slf4j-1.5.2/slf4j-log4j12-1.5.2.jar:./dependencies/commons-fileupload-1.2.1/lib/commons-fileupload-1.2.1.jar:./dependencies/isorelax.jar:./dependencies/mozilla/intl/chardet/java/dist/lib/chardet.jar:./dependencies/saxon9.jar:./dependencies/jsontools-core-1.5.jar:./dependencies/antlr.jar:./dependencies/xom-1.1.jar:./dependencies/junit-4.4.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant-launcher.jar" -sourcepath "./htmlparser/src" -d "./htmlparser/classes" @temp-javac-list
javac: no source files
Usage: javac <options> <source files>
use -help for a list of possible options
"jar" cf "./htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar" @temp-jar-list
'c' flag requires manifest or input files to be specified!
Usage: jar {ctxui}[vfm0Me] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [entry-point] [-C dir] files ...
Options:
    -c  create new archive
    -t  list table of contents for archive
    -x  extract named (or all) files from archive
    -u  update existing archive
    -v  generate verbose output on standard output
    -f  specify archive file name
    -m  include manifest information from specified manifest file
    -e  specify application entry point for stand-alone application
        bundled into an executable jar file
    -0  store only; use no ZIP compression
    -M  do not create a manifest file for the entries
    -i  generate index information for the specified jar files
    -C  change to the specified directory and include the following file
If any file is a directory then it is processed recursively.
The manifest file name, the archive file name and the entry point name are
specified in the same order as the 'm', 'f' and 'e' flags.

Example 1: to archive two class files into an archive called classes.jar:
       jar cvf classes.jar Foo.class Bar.class
Example 2: use an existing manifest file 'mymanifest' and archive all the
           files in the foo/ directory into 'classes.jar':
       jar cvfm classes.jar mymanifest -C foo/ .

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "build/build.py", line 1015, in <module>
    buildAll()
  File "build/build.py", line 762, in buildAll
    buildHtmlParser()
  File "build/build.py", line 499, in buildHtmlParser
    classPath)
  File "build/build.py", line 273, in buildModule
    shutil.copyfile(jarFile, os.path.join(buildRoot, "jars", jarName + ".jar"))
  File "/usr/lib/python2.5/shutil.py", line 46, in copyfile
    fsrc = open(src, 'rb')
IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: './htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar'

The file is indeed missing. Thanks for any help!

Mit freundlichen Gr??en / With kind regards,

Swen Br?seke

Diese E-Mail enth?lt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich gesch?tzte Informationen. 
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From hsivonen at iki.fi  Fri May 28 07:52:20 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:52:20 +0300
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: <20100528134451.da4c5aba@mail.proio.com>
References: <20100528134451.da4c5aba@mail.proio.com>
Message-ID: <22648229-256B-4743-818C-0ADC0887ED20@iki.fi>

On May 28, 2010, at 16:44, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K. wrote:

> I need your help. I want to install validator.nu on a Debian Lenny 32bit, but during the python build/build.py all I am getting the following error:

> javac: no source files
> Usage: javac <options> <source files>
> use -help for a list of possible options
> "jar" cf "./htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar" @temp-jar-list
> 'c' flag requires manifest or input files to be specified!

The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the Java command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work. On Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/



From s.brueseke at proio.com  Fri May 28 07:57:35 2010
From: s.brueseke at proio.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Swen_Br=FCseke_-_proIO_Network_=26_eSolutions_e=2EK=2E?=)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 16:57:35 +0200
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: 22648229-256B-4743-818C-0ADC0887ED20@iki.fi
Message-ID: <20100528145735.6f83dd12@mail.proio.com>

Mit freundlichen Gr??en / With kind regards,

Swen Br?seke
> On May 28, 2010, at 16:44, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K.
> wrote:
> 
> > I need your help. I want to install validator.nu on a Debian Lenny 32bit,
> but during the python build/build.py all I am getting the following error:
> 
> > javac: no source files
> > Usage: javac <options> <source files>
> > use -help for a list of possible options
> > "jar" cf "./htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar" @temp-jar-list
> > 'c' flag requires manifest or input files to be specified!
> 
> The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the Java
> command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work. On
> Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.

I installed openjdk-6-jdk.

Diese E-Mail enth?lt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich gesch?tzte Informationen. 
Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese E-Mail irrt?mlich erhalten haben, 
informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese Mail. 
Das unerlaubte Kopieren sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser Mail sind nicht gestattet. 

This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. 
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the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail.  
Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. 



From hsivonen at iki.fi  Fri May 28 08:07:53 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 18:07:53 +0300
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: <20100528145735.6f83dd12@mail.proio.com>
References: <20100528145735.6f83dd12@mail.proio.com>
Message-ID: <01611373-385C-48F9-B795-22AB0E56A39C@iki.fi>

On May 28, 2010, at 17:57, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K. wrote:

>> The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the Java
>> command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work. On
>> Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.
> 
> I installed openjdk-6-jdk.

Does the Debian Java alternatives mechanism (/usr/sbin/update-java-alternatives) use openjdk-6-jdk as the preferred alternative?

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/



From s.brueseke at proio.com  Fri May 28 08:26:06 2010
From: s.brueseke at proio.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Swen_Br=FCseke_-_proIO_Network_=26_eSolutions_e=2EK=2E?=)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:26:06 +0200
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: 01611373-385C-48F9-B795-22AB0E56A39C@iki.fi
Message-ID: <20100528152606.dc410cd0@mail.proio.com>

> On May 28, 2010, at 17:57, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K.
> wrote:
> 
> >> The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the
> Java
> >> command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work.
> On
> >> Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.
> > 
> > I installed openjdk-6-jdk.
> 
> Does the Debian Java alternatives mechanism
> (/usr/sbin/update-java-alternatives) use openjdk-6-jdk as the preferred
> alternative?
> 
It looks that way:
c5-test1:/var/www/seitwert/validator/checker# update-alternatives --list java
/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/bin/java
/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/bin/java
c5-test1:/var/www/seitwert/validator/checker# update-alternatives --list javac
/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/bin/javac

Diese E-Mail enth?lt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich gesch?tzte Informationen. 
Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese E-Mail irrt?mlich erhalten haben, 
informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese Mail. 
Das unerlaubte Kopieren sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser Mail sind nicht gestattet. 

This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. 
If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify 
the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail.  
Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. 



From saurabh at skjworld.com  Sun May  2 23:18:02 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 11:48:02 +0530
Subject: [html5] Multiple Canvas objects in one Page
Message-ID: <t2m185b16f71005022318uca8d5f5bva297a72f16d2eb52@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I would like to know that if create 10 - 12 separate canvas in one page will
the browser work properly. Each canvas will have one complex animated layer
for a dashboard kind of thing. Does HTML 5 and browsers like Firefox, Google
Chrome, Safari support multiple canvas in one page without any performance
degradation.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From saurabh at skjworld.com  Mon May  3 03:40:20 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 16:10:20 +0530
Subject: [html5] Pasteboard support in HTML 5
Message-ID: <l2j185b16f71005030340yab0621dbtd5e7d3278080cc71@mail.gmail.com>

WebKit defines a pasteboard which gives the following 6 events:

   -

   onbeforecut
   -

   oncut
   -

   onbeforecopy
   -

   oncopy
   -

   onbeforepaste
   -

   onpaste

I could not find these in WHATWG HTML 5 index. Are they available in some
other form in HTML 5 or will HTML 5 not support them.

Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From eitanadlerlist at gmail.com  Tue May  4 13:21:12 2010
From: eitanadlerlist at gmail.com (Eitan Adler)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 23:21:12 +0300
Subject: [html5] inline lists - correct markup?
Message-ID: <AANLkTilOuPCV5YmQjczf5JRBo5NAKN6F7HbMMlPed59O@mail.gmail.com>

What is the appropriate way to mark up inline lists?
Something like:
"I went to the store and bought eggs, cheese, and milk."
or
"I added three things in order to help: blah, deblah, and more blah"

I could imagine something like
<style>
.il {
display:inline;
list-style-type:none;
}
</style>
I went to the store and bought <ul class="il"><li class="il">eggs,
</li><li class="il">cheese, </li><li class="il">and milk.</li></ul>
which seems a bit much.

Are <ul> and <ol> not meant to be used in this way?


From tatham at oddie.com.au  Wed May  5 18:22:59 2010
From: tatham at oddie.com.au (Tatham Oddie)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:22:59 -0400
Subject: [html5] Multiple Canvas objects in one Page
In-Reply-To: <t2m185b16f71005022318uca8d5f5bva297a72f16d2eb52@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2m185b16f71005022318uca8d5f5bva297a72f16d2eb52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8F713F6B2CE37349BBD122288FBD0154856C6A67@MBX02.netplexity.local>

This is a pretty open ended question, with the answer dependent upon exactly
what you're rendering into the canvas and each of the browser's
implementations.

 

IE9 is definitely targeting hardware accelerated rendering, however they
only have SVG support and not canvas.

 

FF have been showing some hardware acceleration, however I'm not sure what
areas they are focussing this on.

 

I have no idea about WebKit's (Chrome + Safari) progress in this area.

 

 

--

Tatham Oddie

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie

 

From: help-bounces at lists.whatwg.org [mailto:help-bounces at lists.whatwg.org]
On Behalf Of Saurabh Jain
Sent: Monday, 3 May 2010 4:18 PM
To: help at lists.whatwg.org
Subject: [html5] Multiple Canvas objects in one Page

 

Hi,

 

I would like to know that if create 10 - 12 separate canvas in one page will
the browser work properly. Each canvas will have one complex animated layer
for a dashboard kind of thing. Does HTML 5 and browsers like Firefox, Google
Chrome, Safari support multiple canvas in one page without any performance
degradation.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me

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From jai.ism at gmail.com  Wed May  5 18:27:49 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:27:49 -0700
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
Message-ID: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem or
clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage object. I
am curious how can I determine which object has changed from within the
onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function called because
localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object changed. storageArea
attribute to event object does not help.

-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From mgainty at hotmail.com  Wed May  5 18:33:02 2010
From: mgainty at hotmail.com (Martin Gainty)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:33:02 -0400
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU142-W1B39FB3839E583B79EF6AAEF50@phx.gbl>


you'll need a event listener which is hooked as a callback mechanism to respond to mouse or key events..information on events and how to hook listeners is discussed here
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-registration-html40

greetings,
Martin Gainty 
______________________________________________ 
Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de d?ni et de confidentialit?
 
Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
Ce message est confidentiel et peut ?tre privil?gi?. Si vous n'?tes pas le destinataire pr?vu, nous te demandons avec bont? que pour satisfaire informez l'exp?diteur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autoris?e ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert ? l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet l?galement obligatoire. ?tant donn? que les email peuvent facilement ?tre sujets ? la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilit? pour le contenu fourni.




Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:27:49 -0700
From: jai.ism at gmail.com
To: help at whatwg.org
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event

Hello,
I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem or clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage object. I am curious how can I determine which object has changed from within the onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function called because localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object changed. storageArea attribute to event object does not help.

-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
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From jai.ism at gmail.com  Wed May  5 18:39:14 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:39:14 -0700
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <BLU142-W1B39FB3839E583B79EF6AAEF50@phx.gbl>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU142-W1B39FB3839E583B79EF6AAEF50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <y2mb6958bd81005051839z97d120d0la3575aa21ae8503c@mail.gmail.com>

Right, I attach an event listener for the storage event like this:

addHandler(window,"storage",OnStorageHandler);

where addHandler attaches my OnStorageHandler function to storage event
type. Question is now how do I determine which object (localStorage or
sessionStorage) has changed from within the OnStorageHandler function.

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Martin Gainty <mgainty at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  you'll need a event listener which is hooked as a callback mechanism to
> respond to mouse or key events..information on events and how to hook
> listeners is discussed here
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-registration-html40
>
> greetings,
> Martin Gainty
> ______________________________________________
> Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de d?ni et de confidentialit?
>
> Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene
> Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte
> Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht
> dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine
> rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von
> E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
>
> Ce message est confidentiel et peut ?tre privil?gi?. Si vous n'?tes pas le destinataire pr?vu, nous te demandons avec bont? que pour satisfaire informez l'exp?diteur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autoris?e ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert ? l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet l?galement obligatoire. ?tant donn? que les email peuvent facilement ?tre sujets ? la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilit? pour le contenu fourni.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:27:49 -0700
>
> From: jai.ism at gmail.com
> To: help at whatwg.org
> Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem or
> clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage object. I
> am curious how can I determine which object has changed from within the
> onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function called because
> localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object changed. storageArea
> attribute to event object does not help.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Jaikishan
>
> ------------------------------
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
> inbox. See how.<http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2>
>



-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From ian at hixie.ch  Wed May  5 19:00:33 2010
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 02:00:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005060159130.8532@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Wed, 5 May 2010, Jaikishan Jalan wrote:
> 
> I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem 
> or clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage 
> object. I am curious how can I determine which object has changed from 
> within the onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function 
> called because localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object 
> changed. storageArea attribute to event object does not help.

You should be able to compare the storageArea attribute of the event 
against the localStorage and sessionStorage objects.

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From jai.ism at gmail.com  Thu May  6 10:21:21 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:21:21 -0700
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005060159130.8532@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005060159130.8532@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <z2pb6958bd81005061021v63ec0203pad93eb56037b20cf@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Ian.  Yes, it does work. I was checking it in wrong way in my event
handler. The following works

    function OnStorageHandler() {
        if (event.storageArea == localStorage) {
            alert("localstorage");
        } else {
            if (event.storageArea == sessionStorage) {
                alert("sessionStorage");
            }
        }
    }

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:00 PM, Ian Hickson <ian at hixie.ch> wrote:

> On Wed, 5 May 2010, Jaikishan Jalan wrote:
> >
> > I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem
> > or clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage
> > object. I am curious how can I determine which object has changed from
> > within the onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function
> > called because localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object
> > changed. storageArea attribute to event object does not help.
>
> You should be able to compare the storageArea attribute of the event
> against the localStorage and sessionStorage objects.
>
> --
> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
> Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>



-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From eitanadlerlist at gmail.com  Thu May  6 11:25:44 2010
From: eitanadlerlist at gmail.com (Eitan Adler)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 21:25:44 +0300
Subject: [html5] <nav> and skiplinks
Message-ID: <q2qa0777e081005061125w435ce859v1965298ed43b76d6@mail.gmail.com>

Now that we have the <nav> element is it necessary to use skip links
for accessibility?


From jai.ism at gmail.com  Thu May  6 21:07:42 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 21:07:42 -0700
Subject: [html5] Draggable API dragend event
Message-ID: <h2gb6958bd81005062107gf6060c3dz7c4ef563bc964f34@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am curious how to determine if the drop event was successful in the
dragend event. In the example shown
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/, it remove the element on
dragend event. I want to drop the selected element only if the drop was
successful. On way is to do this ondrop event. But I feel like dragend is
really the place to do it.

-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From saurabh at skjworld.com  Sun May  9 03:52:37 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 16:22:37 +0530
Subject: [html5] 2D Canvas
Message-ID: <t2u185b16f71005090352q9f2e32b7t629dad3e55c71179@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Can anybody please tell me that if my software has the rectangle from x : 0,
y : 0 to x : 100 and Y : 100 in Java and I am porting it to HTML 5 Canvas
then should I add 0.5 to my coordinates or subtract to get a crisp rectangle
and keeping it still compatible with my Java graphics model? Taking whole
numbers is diffusing the rectangle stroke. In HTML 5 Canvas the coordinate
system starts at 0.5 or -0.5?
Also please can you tell me what is the reason for taking this diffusing
model where 50% stroke color goes to left coordinate and 50% goes towards
right coordinate. Does it not create a barrier to porting Java based
graphical applications since Java has no concept of co-ordinates at 0.5
pixels or its multiples.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From eltdav at gmail.com  Sun May  9 04:09:56 2010
From: eltdav at gmail.com (elton Davids)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 09:09:56 -0200
Subject: [html5] Seek employment
Message-ID: <AANLkTili3e71zet2KnJ3KSiVDApveMrQGLyakBEL4lqG@mail.gmail.com>

Do u people help with finding employment


From excors at gmail.com  Sun May  9 06:52:29 2010
From: excors at gmail.com (Philip Taylor)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 14:52:29 +0100
Subject: [html5] 2D Canvas
In-Reply-To: <t2u185b16f71005090352q9f2e32b7t629dad3e55c71179@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2u185b16f71005090352q9f2e32b7t629dad3e55c71179@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimXwU2NoW2plvLyX1MOTj14baeYB1UUkhXO2QWN@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Saurabh Jain <saurabh at skjworld.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> Can anybody please tell me that if my software has the rectangle from x : 0,
> y : 0 to x : 100 and Y : 100 in Java and I am porting it to HTML 5 Canvas
> then should I add 0.5 to my coordinates or subtract to get a crisp rectangle
> and keeping it still compatible with my Java graphics model? Taking whole
> numbers is diffusing the rectangle stroke. In HTML 5 Canvas the coordinate
> system starts at 0.5 or -0.5?

It starts at 0. Quoting from http://diveintohtml5.org/canvas.html :

  "Imagine each pixel as a large square. The whole-number coordinates
(0, 1, 2?) are the edges of the squares. If you draw a one-unit-wide
line between whole-number coordinates, it will overlap opposite sides
of the pixel square, and the resulting line will be drawn two pixels
wide. To draw a line that is only one pixel wide, you need to shift
the coordinates by 0.5 perpendicular to the line's direction."

The same applies to rectangles. If you're drawing a filled rectangle
then you want to use whole numbers for the corners, so the shape fills
the whole of the edge pixels; but if you're drawing a stroked
rectangle then you want to add 0.5, so the stroke lines are centered
in the middle of the edge pixels rather than overlapping two rows of
pixels.

-- 
Philip Taylor
excors at gmail.com


From saurabh at skjworld.com  Mon May 10 01:11:20 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:41:20 +0530
Subject: [html5] Implementation of Text in Canvas inside Chrome and Firefox
Message-ID: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

There are multiple issues in setting font in Chrome and Firefox inside
Canvas. We are not able to set it as per WHATWG HTML 5 specification. Can
anybody let me know where to report these issues. Also till when is Canvas
expected to be completely supported in all major browsers specially Chrome
and Firefox.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From hendry at iki.fi  Mon May 10 01:17:14 2010
From: hendry at iki.fi (Kai Hendry)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:17:14 +0100
Subject: [html5] Implementation of Text in Canvas inside Chrome and
	Firefox
In-Reply-To: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilTbd5JaHz5_27POV0rwOh6QV3218rNc2xp3KuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Report the bugs on their respective bug tracking systems.

http://webkit.org/quality/reporting.html
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/

I have encountered an odd canvas problem myself:
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33968


From srdubey at gmail.com  Tue May 11 01:34:45 2010
From: srdubey at gmail.com (Santosh Dube)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:04:45 +0530
Subject: [html5] Implementation of Text in Canvas inside Chrome and
	Firefox
In-Reply-To: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinsWhYHpxBPJEWrBKfjDfsl2jMimmnFNuF4E-Ci@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Saurabh,

Currently HTML 5 not supported by all browser because it is currently a
working draft.
HTMl 5 Canvas tag supported by Fireforx 3.5, IE 9 and opera brrowsers.

Thanks & regards
Santosh Dube

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Saurabh Jain <saurabh at skjworld.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There are multiple issues in setting font in Chrome and Firefox inside
> Canvas. We are not able to set it as per WHATWG HTML 5 specification. Can
> anybody let me know where to report these issues. Also till when is Canvas
> expected to be completely supported in all major browsers specially Chrome
> and Firefox.
>
> --
> Saurabh Jain
> Director
> SKJ Technologies Private Limited
> http://www.skjworld.com
> Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
> http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>


-- 
Thanks & Regards,

Santosh Dube
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From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Wed May 12 10:27:54 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:27:54 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>

Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to
semantically separate my app's content from it's UI chrome. I could use
<form> but then even clicking a simple <button> submits the form's data when
what I'm creating is more of a stateful toolbar than a proper form.

To that end, is there something like <ui> already available, or in the
works, or a better solution that I'm not aware of?

Thanks,
Darcy Murphy
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From nziarek at gmail.com  Wed May 12 11:02:28 2010
From: nziarek at gmail.com (Nathan Ziarek)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:02:28 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B3DD6583-5330-416D-B8DB-745317A0DBE8@gmail.com>

I think, between the <nav>,<header>, and <footer> elements, HTML5 is  
looking pretty good for non-content page chrome.

Is there a scenario where these three elements don't fullfill your  
needs?

--
Nathan Ziarek
Sent from my iPhone 3GS

On May 12, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to  
> semantically separate my app's content from it's UI chrome. I could  
> use <form> but then even clicking a simple <button> submits the  
> form's data when what I'm creating is more of a stateful toolbar  
> than a proper form.
>
> To that end, is there something like <ui> already available, or in  
> the works, or a better solution that I'm not aware of?
>
> Thanks,
> Darcy Murphy
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org


From sahulbert at gmail.com  Wed May 12 13:48:54 2010
From: sahulbert at gmail.com (Scott Hulbert)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:48:54 -0700
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimETeIXZdP_dFsGSbOxIfj9CiN_HMSmQZ-Pc0z8@mail.gmail.com>

You should take a look at the Web Accessibility Initiative for Accessible
Rich Internet Applications:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAI-ARIA
http://www.w3.org/standards/techs/aria

Others may have better links, but it's my understanding that this
initiative's goal is to make web apps, which is what it seems you are
building, more accessible.

Best,
Scott Hulbert

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>wrote:

> Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to
> semantically separate my app's content from it's UI chrome. I could use
> <form> but then even clicking a simple <button> submits the form's data when
> what I'm creating is more of a stateful toolbar than a proper form.
>
> To that end, is there something like <ui> already available, or in the
> works, or a better solution that I'm not aware of?
>
> Thanks,
> Darcy Murphy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>
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From paradisaeidae at gmail.com  Wed May 12 16:31:28 2010
From: paradisaeidae at gmail.com (Mark T)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:31:28 +1000
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>

Ti group has been working on this issue:
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/XGR/

MarkT

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Recently I?came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag?in order to
--


From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Thu May 13 06:11:29 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 08:11:29 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>

Scott, Mark,

Thanks for the links.

ARIA is a great project because it works with what we already have in order
to produce better results but Accessibility, in and of itself, is not
exactly what I'm after. The XGR stuff looks interesting as well, but
overkill.

My biggest issue with web app development is that there is no line between
content and chrome. Ideally I'd love to see this:

<ui>
  <label>...</label>
  <input ... />
  ...
  <form ...>
    <label>...</label>
    <input ... />
    <input type="submit" />
  </form>
</ui>

Where the <ui> element can be hooked into by user agents and assistive
technologies to provide the same additional functionality that a <form> can
provide, but without requiring a submission to the server, and it can
contain multiple forms if necessary. With HTML5 being principled on
improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that in
this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having to
invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed. From what I
gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
creation.

I personally think that a <ui> tag could be a spiritual cousin to the newly
added <section>, <header>, <footer>, and <nav> elements. But I'm also aware
we're in the final call for comments, so I'm not expecting anyone to jump
through hoops for my idea. Thanks for listening and discussing the idea
though.

- Darcy

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Mark T <paradisaeidae at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ti group has been working on this issue:
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/XGR/
>
> MarkT
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to
> --
>
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From nziarek at gmail.com  Thu May 13 07:11:08 2010
From: nziarek at gmail.com (Nathan Ziarek)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:11:08 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>

> From what I
> gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> creation.

You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.

> With HTML5 being principled on
> improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that in
> this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having to
> invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.

This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.

I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
doesn't quite line up with my expectations.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?


From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Thu May 13 08:41:38 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:41:38 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>

Mostly I'm being an overly picky perfectionist, but in my opinion the
separation of content and chrome is where HTML falls apart from an
application development perspective. HTML5 was originally intended "to
address the need for one coherent development environment
for Web Applications" (
http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000005.html)
and it has made enormous strides towards that, so please don't think that
I'm discounting anything that's been done so far. However I feel strongly
that it's not quite as useful as it could be, and this one little tag that
I'm arguing for would do it (for me).

For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The toolbar
is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't
submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm
working with. For something as complex as http://280slides.com you can
clearly see that the only actual "document" on the page is the slide you're
currently working on, everything else is purely UI Chrome and I believe it
should be marked up as such, not as the ridiculous <div> soup that it is.

I think I understand what you're saying regarding HTML Documents having no
notion of AJAX and to a point I agree, but by that argument they also have
no notion of Javascript and to discount the importance of the new JS API's
in HTML5 would be wrong. Web apps aren't web apps these days without JS, and
subsequently, AJAX.

In order to build web apps properly we've been taught that pages need to
work over, around, and despite a wide array of inconsistently available
functionality ? that's the reality we live with in order to have extremely
interoperable apps (a computing achievement that shouldn't be looked down
upon). The additional tags in HTML5 don't violate that, and I don't believe
that a <ui> tag would either. All I'm thinking is that a subtle realignment
and enhancement regarding what part of an HTML document is content and which
part is chrome would be extremely valuable not only to us as developers but
also to our site's users.

- Darcy

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com> wrote:

> > From what I
> > gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> > creation.
>
> You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
> documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.
>
> > With HTML5 being principled on
> > improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that
> in
> > this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having
> to
> > invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.
>
> This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
> application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
> While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
> to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.
>
> I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
> that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
> be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
> elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
> change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
> doesn't quite line up with my expectations.
>
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?
>
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From nziarek at gmail.com  Thu May 13 09:07:51 2010
From: nziarek at gmail.com (Nathan Ziarek)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:07:51 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinIyDdD66E6ypvxYUIenAc9TFTTTGgSyx8AD8_7@mail.gmail.com>

For the record, I'm in favor of something like a <ui> element, I just
have no need for it :)

I tend to think of the elements of HTML5 in two camps: content (<p>,
<ul>, <h#>) and chrome (<nav>, <header>).

The content side of the equation has generic, non-semantic elements
(<span> and <div>) that can be used for any styling purpose.

It doesn't seem as if the chrome side has a generic, non-semantic
element for using the same way. That's where I think your <ui>
suggestion fits in: an open use element that indicates to any agent
that the stuff inside isn't part of the content.

Where I think we disagree is that the <ui> element should affect the
baseline actions of the content within. A <form> within a <ui> should
still submit as a page refresh unless rerouted by JS.

You are probably right that it's too late in the game to have
something like this added now, but it certainly isn't a bad idea. Keep
it around for HTML6 :)

nz

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mostly I'm being an overly picky perfectionist, but in my opinion the
> separation of content and chrome is where HTML falls apart from an
> application development perspective. HTML5 was originally intended "to
> address the need for one coherent development environment
> for Web Applications"
> (http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000005.html)
> and it has made enormous strides towards that, so please don't think that
> I'm discounting anything that's been done so far. However I feel strongly
> that it's not quite as useful as it could be, and this one little tag that
> I'm arguing for would do it (for me).
> For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The toolbar
> is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't
> submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm
> working with. For something as complex as http://280slides.com you can
> clearly see that the only actual "document" on the page is the slide you're
> currently working on, everything else is purely UI Chrome and I believe it
> should be marked up as such, not as the ridiculous <div> soup that it is.
> I think I understand what you're saying regarding HTML Documents having no
> notion of AJAX and to a point I agree, but by that argument they also have
> no notion of Javascript and to discount the importance of the new JS API's
> in HTML5 would be wrong. Web apps aren't web apps these days without JS, and
> subsequently, AJAX.
> In order to build web apps properly we've been taught that pages need to
> work over, around, and despite a wide array of inconsistently available
> functionality ? that's the reality we live with in order to have extremely
> interoperable apps (a computing achievement that shouldn't be looked down
> upon). The additional tags in HTML5 don't violate that, and I don't believe
> that a <ui> tag would either. All I'm thinking?is that a subtle realignment
> and enhancement regarding what part of an HTML document is content and which
> part is chrome would be extremely valuable not only to us as developers but
> also to our site's users.
> - Darcy
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > From what I
>> > gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
>> > creation.
>>
>> You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
>> documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.
>>
>> > With HTML5 being principled on
>> > improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that
>> > in
>> > this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having
>> > to
>> > invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.
>>
>> This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
>> application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
>> While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
>> to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.
>>
>> I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
>> that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
>> be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
>> elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
>> change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
>> doesn't quite line up with my expectations.
>>
>> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?
>
>


From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Thu May 13 09:44:08 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:44:08 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinIyDdD66E6ypvxYUIenAc9TFTTTGgSyx8AD8_7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinIyDdD66E6ypvxYUIenAc9TFTTTGgSyx8AD8_7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimDW-rT-1METodoE9JaWltoBGpJg_sFJPOrwRDX@mail.gmail.com>

Yup, right on. All of it, even the <form> within a <ui> bit.

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com> wrote:

> For the record, I'm in favor of something like a <ui> element, I just
> have no need for it :)
>
> I tend to think of the elements of HTML5 in two camps: content (<p>,
> <ul>, <h#>) and chrome (<nav>, <header>).
>
> The content side of the equation has generic, non-semantic elements
> (<span> and <div>) that can be used for any styling purpose.
>
> It doesn't seem as if the chrome side has a generic, non-semantic
> element for using the same way. That's where I think your <ui>
> suggestion fits in: an open use element that indicates to any agent
> that the stuff inside isn't part of the content.
>
> Where I think we disagree is that the <ui> element should affect the
> baseline actions of the content within. A <form> within a <ui> should
> still submit as a page refresh unless rerouted by JS.
>
> You are probably right that it's too late in the game to have
> something like this added now, but it certainly isn't a bad idea. Keep
> it around for HTML6 :)
>
> nz
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Mostly I'm being an overly picky perfectionist, but in my opinion the
> > separation of content and chrome is where HTML falls apart from an
> > application development perspective. HTML5 was originally intended "to
> > address the need for one coherent development environment
> > for Web Applications"
> > (
> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000005.html)
> > and it has made enormous strides towards that, so please don't think that
> > I'm discounting anything that's been done so far. However I feel strongly
> > that it's not quite as useful as it could be, and this one little tag
> that
> > I'm arguing for would do it (for me).
> > For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The
> toolbar
> > is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't
> > submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm
> > working with. For something as complex as http://280slides.com you can
> > clearly see that the only actual "document" on the page is the slide
> you're
> > currently working on, everything else is purely UI Chrome and I believe
> it
> > should be marked up as such, not as the ridiculous <div> soup that it is.
> > I think I understand what you're saying regarding HTML Documents having
> no
> > notion of AJAX and to a point I agree, but by that argument they also
> have
> > no notion of Javascript and to discount the importance of the new JS
> API's
> > in HTML5 would be wrong. Web apps aren't web apps these days without JS,
> and
> > subsequently, AJAX.
> > In order to build web apps properly we've been taught that pages need to
> > work over, around, and despite a wide array of inconsistently available
> > functionality ? that's the reality we live with in order to have
> extremely
> > interoperable apps (a computing achievement that shouldn't be looked down
> > upon). The additional tags in HTML5 don't violate that, and I don't
> believe
> > that a <ui> tag would either. All I'm thinking is that a subtle
> realignment
> > and enhancement regarding what part of an HTML document is content and
> which
> > part is chrome would be extremely valuable not only to us as developers
> but
> > also to our site's users.
> > - Darcy
> > On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > From what I
> >> > gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> >> > creation.
> >>
> >> You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
> >> documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.
> >>
> >> > With HTML5 being principled on
> >> > improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd
> that
> >> > in
> >> > this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without
> having
> >> > to
> >> > invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.
> >>
> >> This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
> >> application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
> >> While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
> >> to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.
> >>
> >> I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
> >> that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
> >> be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
> >> elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
> >> change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
> >> doesn't quite line up with my expectations.
> >>
> >> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?
> >
> >
>
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From sagara1337 at gmail.com  Thu May 13 10:13:11 2010
From: sagara1337 at gmail.com (Sagara)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 20:13:11 +0300
Subject: [html5] How do you overcome the HTML form nesting limitation?
Message-ID: <AANLkTilJiXtzid4OxQS4uf6jtzd1-4nIv8MbChxqL26H@mail.gmail.com>

1. Why we don't allow nested forms in HTML5?

Problem is originally described at
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/597596/how-do-you-overcome-the-html-form-nesting-limitation
*In short author says:*

You are making a blog app and you have a form with some fields for creating
a new post and a toolbar with "actions" like "Save", "Delete", "Cancel".
Our objective is to write the form in a way that doesn't require javascript,
just plain old html form and submit buttons.
Since the action url is defined in the Form tag and not in each individual
submit button, our only option is to post to a generic url and then start
"if...then...else" to determine the name of the button that was submitted.
Not very elegant, but our only choice, since we don't want to rely on
javascript.

The only problem is that pressing "Delete", will submit ALL the form fields
on the server even though the only thing needed for this action is a Hidden
input with the post-id. Not very big deal in this small example, but I have
forms with hundreds (so to speak) of fields and tabs in my LOB applications
that (because of requirements) have to submit everything in one-go and in
any case this seems very inefficient and a waste. If form nesting was
supported, I would at least be able to wrap the "Delete" submit button
inside it's own form with only the post-id field.
---

One answer was to re-design the app so users could delete items without
opening them...
Another answer was to have the forms side by side on the page, but not
nested. then use CSS to make all the buttons line up pretty. But... it is "too
hackish. Plus in a very large page ... it's almost impossible to completely
separate the elements' screen position from their position in the document".
*2. So, is there any elegant solution in HTML5, without JavaScript, and with
several buttons to submit different sets of input fields (to the same or
different URL(s)?*
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From paradisaeidae at gmail.com  Thu May 13 15:01:32 2010
From: paradisaeidae at gmail.com (Mark T)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 08:01:32 +1000
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikZBeVMgeAwZKPgRSvyCJdBXCrfgmW1-iIzVrIZ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Darcy,
The 'html5 spec' is a subset of W3C and WHATWG suggestions.
One of the forms directions of the W3C is xforms.
In the direction you are asking for.
I've been trialling some javascript 'implants' of this.
As it is not likely to be part of browsers for a while.
Being a namespace implementation. it does not link .immediately. with
libs such as jquery.
Namespace is a handy thing.

http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms (Cannot get this
working in FFox...).
http://sourceforge.net/projects/xsltforms/ (Impressive, works 4 me in
FFox, mime-type issue in others (for me)).
http://www.w3.org/TR/XForms-for-HTML/

MarkT




On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Scott, Mark,
> Thanks for the links.
> ARIA is a great project because it works with what we already have in order
> to produce better results but Accessibility, in and of itself, is not
> exactly what I'm after. The XGR stuff looks interesting as well, but
> overkill.
> My biggest issue with web app development is that there is no line between
> content and chrome. Ideally I'd love to see this:
> <ui>
> ??<label>...</label>
> ??<input ... />
> ??...
> ??<form ...>
> ?? ?<label>...</label>
> ?? ?<input ... />
> ?? ?<input type="submit" />
> ??</form>
> </ui>
> Where the <ui> element can be hooked into by user agents and assistive
> technologies to provide the same additional functionality that a <form> can
> provide, but without requiring a submission to the server, and it can
> contain multiple forms if necessary. With HTML5 being principled on
> improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that in
> this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having to
> invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed. From what I
> gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> creation.
> I personally think that a <ui> tag could be a spiritual cousin to the newly
> added <section>, <header>, <footer>, and <nav> elements. But I'm also aware
> we're in the final call for comments, so I'm not expecting anyone to jump
> through hoops for my idea. Thanks for listening and discussing the idea
> though.
> - Darcy
> On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Mark T <paradisaeidae at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ti group has been working on this issue:
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/XGR/
>>
>> MarkT
>>
>> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Recently I?came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag?in order to
>> --
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>



-- 
(+61 4) 0679 5734
skype: govirtual.com.au
?????????Jingle ?!
It's a Jingle Out There!


From sagara1337 at gmail.com  Fri May 14 00:05:56 2010
From: sagara1337 at gmail.com (Sagara)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:05:56 +0300
Subject: [html5] How do you overcome the HTML form nesting limitation?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilJiXtzid4OxQS4uf6jtzd1-4nIv8MbChxqL26H@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilJiXtzid4OxQS4uf6jtzd1-4nIv8MbChxqL26H@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimlB1zAB-xRWdpLZQg8S8nU_hPO52EzmRoEjTyh@mail.gmail.com>

Form attribute (form owner) from HTML5 seems to solve the case.

Also I found interesting note
http://anderwald.info/internet/nesting-form-tags-in-xhtml/ - that (X)HTML
disallows nesting forms like "form > form", but allows "form > fieldset >
form", W3 validator <http://validator.w3.org/> says it is valid, but
browsers does not quite support this.

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 20:13, Sagara <sagara1337 at gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. Why we don't allow nested forms in HTML5?
>
> Problem is originally described at
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/597596/how-do-you-overcome-the-html-form-nesting-limitation
> *In short author says:*
>
> You are making a blog app and you have a form with some fields for creating
> a new post and a toolbar with "actions" like "Save", "Delete", "Cancel".
> Our objective is to write the form in a way that doesn't require
> javascript, just plain old html form and submit buttons.
> Since the action url is defined in the Form tag and not in each individual
> submit button, our only option is to post to a generic url and then start
> "if...then...else" to determine the name of the button that was submitted.
> Not very elegant, but our only choice, since we don't want to rely on
> javascript.
>
> The only problem is that pressing "Delete", will submit ALL the form fields
> on the server even though the only thing needed for this action is a Hidden
> input with the post-id. Not very big deal in this small example, but I have
> forms with hundreds (so to speak) of fields and tabs in my LOB applications
> that (because of requirements) have to submit everything in one-go and in
> any case this seems very inefficient and a waste. If form nesting was
> supported, I would at least be able to wrap the "Delete" submit button
> inside it's own form with only the post-id field.
> ---
>
> One answer was to re-design the app so users could delete items without
> opening them...
> Another answer was to have the forms side by side on the page, but not
> nested. then use CSS to make all the buttons line up pretty. But... it is "too
> hackish. Plus in a very large page ... it's almost impossible to completely
> separate the elements' screen position from their position in the document".
> *2. So, is there any elegant solution in HTML5, without JavaScript, and
> with several buttons to submit different sets of input fields (to the same
> or different URL(s)?*
>
>
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From designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk  Fri May 14 03:34:33 2010
From: designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk (designer)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 11:34:33 +0100
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
Message-ID: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>

Sorry if this is obvious, but a page I'm working on won't validate because 
of the mail link.

The validation error message is:

 Bad value mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem with 
RSPCA site
for attribute href on element a: WHITESPACE in QUERY.

the cut and pasted code is as follows:

<dd>N.B. If you have found a link which doesn't work, do please
        <a href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem 
with RSPCA site">TELL US</a>
        us about it</dd>

What am I doing wrong here? I've googled, but to no avail.

Thanks,

Bob 





From robertc at boogdesign.com  Fri May 14 04:02:15 2010
From: robertc at boogdesign.com (Rob Crowther)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:02:15 +0100
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
References: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
Message-ID: <4BED2DB7.1080808@boogdesign.com>

designer wrote:
>        <a href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem 
> with RSPCA site">TELL US</a>
> 
Use URL encoding:

<a href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?
subject=problem%20with%20RSPCA%20site">TELL US</a>

(Linebreak for formatting, should be all on one line)

> What am I doing wrong here? I've googled, but to no avail.
>
http://www.eskimo.com/~bloo/indexdot/html/topics/urlencoding.htm

Rob


From arlen.walker at gmail.com  Fri May 14 08:08:47 2010
From: arlen.walker at gmail.com (Arlen Walker)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:08:47 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BBAEF806-731B-4BD3-A8D2-062608F31D7D@gmail.com>


On May 13, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Darcy Murphy wrote:

> For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The toolbar is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm working with.

OK, isn't that sort of thing what <menu> and <command> are supposed to be for? Or am I not understanding something here?

Have Fun,
Arlen

------------------------------
In God we trust, all others must supply data



From robertc at boogdesign.com  Sun May 16 11:23:36 2010
From: robertc at boogdesign.com (Rob Crowther)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 19:23:36 +0100
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <000301caf520$bf0f9af0$0b01a8c0@gam>
References: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
	<4BED2DB7.1080808@boogdesign.com>
	<000301caf520$bf0f9af0$0b01a8c0@gam>
Message-ID: <4BF03828.8080107@boogdesign.com>

On 16/05/10 18:53, designer wrote:
> Thanks Rob, that fixed it. However, no-one has commented on the fact
> that the spaces are allowed in XHTML1.1? That's what confused me!
>

I would guess: the XHTML 1.1 spec allows a space separated list of URLs 
on the href attribute, whereas HTML5 allows only a single URL which may 
be surrounded by spaces.

Someone more familiar with XHTML 1.1 might know better.

Rob


From hsivonen at iki.fi  Mon May 17 04:33:49 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 04:33:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
Message-ID: <1078143545.202250.1274096029917.JavaMail.root@cm-mail03.mozilla.org>

"designer" <designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk> wrote:

> Sorry if this is obvious, but a page I'm working on won't validate
> because 
> of the mail link.
> 
> The validation error message is:
> 
>  Bad value mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem
> with 
> RSPCA site
> for attribute href on element a: WHITESPACE in QUERY.
> 
> the cut and pasted code is as follows:
> 
> <dd>N.B. If you have found a link which doesn't work, do please
>         <a
> href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem 
> with RSPCA site">TELL US</a>
>         us about it</dd>
> 
> What am I doing wrong here? I've googled, but to no avail.

According to the URI spec, you should escape space as %20 in URLs.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/


From hsivonen at iki.fi  Mon May 17 04:36:29 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 04:36:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <4BF03828.8080107@boogdesign.com>
Message-ID: <1159138174.202254.1274096189772.JavaMail.root@cm-mail03.mozilla.org>

"Rob Crowther" <robertc at boogdesign.com> wrote:

> On 16/05/10 18:53, designer wrote:
> > Thanks Rob, that fixed it. However, no-one has commented on the
> fact
> > that the spaces are allowed in XHTML1.1? That's what confused me!
> >
> 
> I would guess: the XHTML 1.1 spec allows a space separated list of
> URLs 
> on the href attribute, whereas HTML5 allows only a single URL which
> may 
> be surrounded by spaces.
> 
> Someone more familiar with XHTML 1.1 might know better.

XHTML 1.1 has less advance validation tools available for it, so the URL syntax is not checked.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/


From csolisr at gmail.com  Sat May 22 20:02:45 2010
From: csolisr at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Carlos_Andr=E9s_Sol=EDs?=)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 21:02:45 -0600
Subject: [html5] About possible formats for multiple audio and subtitle
	streams for HTML5
Message-ID: <AANLkTimrqJlDXLxWfWHvVNWLMGEu1l4rikDfbxNmSOdx@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, I've been writing lately in the WHATWG and WebM mail-lists and would
like to hear your opinion on the following idea.
Imagine a hypothetical website that delivers videos in multiple languages.
Like on a DVD, where you can choose your audio and subtitles language. And
also imagine there is the possibility of downloading a file with the video,
along with either the chosen audio/sub tracks, or all of them at once. Right
now, though, there's no way to deliver multiple audio and subtitle streams
on HTML5 and WebM. Since the latter supports only one audio and one video
track, with no embedded subtitles, creating a file with multiple tracks is
impossible, unless using full Matroska instead of WebM - save for the fact
that the standard proposed is WebM and not Matroska.
A solution could be to stream the full Matroska with all tracks embedded.
This, though, would be inefficient, since the user often will select only
one language to view the video, and there's no way yet to stream only the
selected tracks to the user. I have thought of two solutions for this:
* Solution 1: Server-side demuxing. The video with all tracks is stored as a
Matroska file. The server demuxes the file, generates a new one with the
chosen tracks, and streams only the tracks chosen by the user. When the user
chooses to download the full video, the full Matroska file is downloaded
with no overhead. The downside is the server-side demuxing and remuxing;
fortunately most users only need to choose once. Also, there's the problem
of having to download the full file instead of a file with only the tracks
wanted; this could be solved by even more muxing.
* Solution 2: User-side muxing. Each track (video, audio, subtitles) is
stored in standalone files. The server streams the tracks chosen by the
user, and the web browser muxes them back. When the user chooses to download
the video, the generation of the file can be done either server-side or
client-side. This can be very dynamic but will force content providers to
use extra coding inside of the pages.

Now for part two, there is still an issue on which format should be used for
subtitling. As you might know, there are basic subtitle formats that are
formed by timed plain text and little else (like SRT or the proposed
WebSRT), and there are full-blown subtitle formats that allow for extreme
formatting and typesetting (like Advanced SubStation Alpha). The basic
subtitles have the advantage of being easily editable by hand, but
sacrificing capabilities that advanced formats allow with the cost of
harder-to-understand syntax. It would be a shame to drop advanced subtitles
from the HTML5 specs, but it would be bothersome if everybody is forced to
use a complex-to-write format. So a middle ground could be handy: allowing
WebSRT for the simple tasks, and using another format for advanced
typesetting. To put an example, ASSA allows to modify the text font, size,
border, shadow, scale, rotation, position, and some other properties; it
also allows movement of text, text animation, karaoke, and even some
vectorial graphing. But all of that could be achieved with HTML5 programming
on top of the WebSRT format (or whichever gets chosen). This, of course,
causes a pair of problems.
* The first one is that there would be no tools to edit HTML5 subtitles
specifically, forcing to make a type of subset which would have to be
standardized, plus an editor to be able to create such subtitles without
having to learn how to create a full-blown website.
* The second one is that media players that wanted to use such subtitles
would be forced to ship an HTML5 decoder. Most media players are NOT web
browsers, though, or based on one either. The only exceptions I remember are
media players built on top of XUL, like Songbird or Nightingale. But players
like WMP, WinAmp, VLC, Xine family, GStreamer family or MPlayer family would
be left out, since they have no need (and no time) to plug in a web browser
in a program that hasn't needed it.

And that would be the end of my brainstorming. Any ideas or suggestions?
- Carlos Sol?s
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From davidjohnburrowes at gmail.com  Thu May 27 09:53:59 2010
From: davidjohnburrowes at gmail.com (David John Burrowes)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 09:53:59 -0700
Subject: [html5] Newbie question about SharedWorkers
Message-ID: <D101908A-9CA4-4FC0-A90E-B8E6F8FAB006@gmail.com>

Hello all,

I'm making my way through the spec about Workers, and have a question about SharedWorkers.


The spec makes various references to shared workers being used by multiple pages in parallel.  My question is can a shared worker be used by two sequentially accessed pages?  My reading of the spec says "no", but my intuition about what behavior I would "expect" says I should be able to.  Is my reading of the spec right?

Here's an example:
	We have two pages: P1 and P2 (from the same origin etc)
	P1 has a link to P2 on it (<a href="P2">) 

	Both P1 and P2 reference a shared worker SW

	When the user gets page P1, then SW is created.
	User then clicks on the link to P2

My interpretation of the spec says that when this link is clicked, P1 will be made no longer active, so it will be removed from SW's list of Documents.  This will leave SW's list empty, which will make it no longer a permissable worker. It's closing flag will be set to true, and presumably there's a chance it will be destroyed before P2 can be loaded and access SW.  So, P2 will need to re-create SW.

It seems desirable to me that if a page transition is being made between pages with compatible origins, that a shared worker would be preserved across them, allowing complex calculations being done by the worker to be shared by the pages (obviously, the worker could be storing its work in a database, and then reloading that when it is created.  But, that seems like overkill)

Thoughts?

David



From s.brueseke at proio.com  Fri May 28 06:44:51 2010
From: s.brueseke at proio.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Swen_Br=FCseke_-_proIO_Network_=26_eSolutions_e=2EK=2E?=)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:44:51 +0200
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
Message-ID: <20100528134451.da4c5aba@mail.proio.com>

Hi mailinglist,

I need your help. I want to install validator.nu on a Debian Lenny 32bit, but during the python build/build.py all I am getting the following error:

"javac" -g -nowarn -classpath "./dependencies/commons-codec-1.3/commons-codec-1.3.jar:./dependencies/commons-httpclient-3.1/commons-httpclient-3.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-adapters-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-api-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-charsets-4_0.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-4_0.jar:./dependencies/iri-0.5/lib/iri.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/servlet-api-2.5-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-util-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/ext/jetty-ajp-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/apache-log4j-1.2.15/log4j-1.2.15.jar:./dependencies/rhino1_7R1/js.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xercesImpl.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xml-apis.jar:./dependencies/slf4j-1.5.2/slf4j-log4j12-1.5.2.jar:./dependencies/commons-fileupload-1.2.1/lib/commons-fileupload-1.2.1.jar:./dependencies/isorelax.jar:./dependencies/mozilla/intl/chardet/java/dist/lib/chardet.jar:./dependencies/saxon9.jar:./dependencies/jsontools-core-1.5.jar:./dependencies/antlr.jar:./dependencies/xom-1.1.jar:./dependencies/junit-4.4.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant-launcher.jar:jing-trang/build/jing.jar" -sourcepath "./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/src" -d "./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/classes" @temp-javac-list
Note: ./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/src/org/whattf/datatype/IriRef.java uses or overrides a deprecated API.
Note: Recompile with -Xlint:deprecation for details.
"jar" cf "./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/dist/html5-datatypes.jar" @temp-jar-list
"javac" -g -nowarn -classpath "./dependencies/commons-codec-1.3/commons-codec-1.3.jar:./dependencies/commons-httpclient-3.1/commons-httpclient-3.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-adapters-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-api-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-charsets-4_0.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-4_0.jar:./dependencies/iri-0.5/lib/iri.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/servlet-api-2.5-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-util-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/ext/jetty-ajp-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/apache-log4j-1.2.15/log4j-1.2.15.jar:./dependencies/rhino1_7R1/js.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xercesImpl.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xml-apis.jar:./dependencies/slf4j-1.5.2/slf4j-log4j12-1.5.2.jar:./dependencies/commons-fileupload-1.2.1/lib/commons-fileupload-1.2.1.jar:./dependencies/isorelax.jar:./dependencies/mozilla/intl/chardet/java/dist/lib/chardet.jar:./dependencies/saxon9.jar:./dependencies/jsontools-core-1.5.jar:./dependencies/antlr.jar:./dependencies/xom-1.1.jar:./dependencies/junit-4.4.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant-launcher.jar:./jars/html5-datatypes.jar:jing-trang/build/jing.jar" -sourcepath "./syntax/non-schema/java/src" -d "./syntax/non-schema/java/classes" @temp-javac-list
"jar" cf "./syntax/non-schema/java/dist/non-schema.jar" @temp-jar-list
"javac" -g -nowarn -classpath "./dependencies/commons-codec-1.3/commons-codec-1.3.jar:./dependencies/commons-httpclient-3.1/commons-httpclient-3.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-adapters-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-api-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-charsets-4_0.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-4_0.jar:./dependencies/iri-0.5/lib/iri.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/servlet-api-2.5-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-util-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/ext/jetty-ajp-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/apache-log4j-1.2.15/log4j-1.2.15.jar:./dependencies/rhino1_7R1/js.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xercesImpl.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xml-apis.jar:./dependencies/slf4j-1.5.2/slf4j-log4j12-1.5.2.jar:./dependencies/commons-fileupload-1.2.1/lib/commons-fileupload-1.2.1.jar:./dependencies/isorelax.jar:./dependencies/mozilla/intl/chardet/java/dist/lib/chardet.jar:./dependencies/saxon9.jar:./dependencies/jsontools-core-1.5.jar:./dependencies/antlr.jar:./dependencies/xom-1.1.jar:./dependencies/junit-4.4.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant-launcher.jar" -sourcepath "./htmlparser/src" -d "./htmlparser/classes" @temp-javac-list
javac: no source files
Usage: javac <options> <source files>
use -help for a list of possible options
"jar" cf "./htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar" @temp-jar-list
'c' flag requires manifest or input files to be specified!
Usage: jar {ctxui}[vfm0Me] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [entry-point] [-C dir] files ...
Options:
    -c  create new archive
    -t  list table of contents for archive
    -x  extract named (or all) files from archive
    -u  update existing archive
    -v  generate verbose output on standard output
    -f  specify archive file name
    -m  include manifest information from specified manifest file
    -e  specify application entry point for stand-alone application
        bundled into an executable jar file
    -0  store only; use no ZIP compression
    -M  do not create a manifest file for the entries
    -i  generate index information for the specified jar files
    -C  change to the specified directory and include the following file
If any file is a directory then it is processed recursively.
The manifest file name, the archive file name and the entry point name are
specified in the same order as the 'm', 'f' and 'e' flags.

Example 1: to archive two class files into an archive called classes.jar:
       jar cvf classes.jar Foo.class Bar.class
Example 2: use an existing manifest file 'mymanifest' and archive all the
           files in the foo/ directory into 'classes.jar':
       jar cvfm classes.jar mymanifest -C foo/ .

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "build/build.py", line 1015, in <module>
    buildAll()
  File "build/build.py", line 762, in buildAll
    buildHtmlParser()
  File "build/build.py", line 499, in buildHtmlParser
    classPath)
  File "build/build.py", line 273, in buildModule
    shutil.copyfile(jarFile, os.path.join(buildRoot, "jars", jarName + ".jar"))
  File "/usr/lib/python2.5/shutil.py", line 46, in copyfile
    fsrc = open(src, 'rb')
IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: './htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar'

The file is indeed missing. Thanks for any help!

Mit freundlichen Gr??en / With kind regards,

Swen Br?seke

Diese E-Mail enth?lt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich gesch?tzte Informationen. 
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From hsivonen at iki.fi  Fri May 28 07:52:20 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:52:20 +0300
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: <20100528134451.da4c5aba@mail.proio.com>
References: <20100528134451.da4c5aba@mail.proio.com>
Message-ID: <22648229-256B-4743-818C-0ADC0887ED20@iki.fi>

On May 28, 2010, at 16:44, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K. wrote:

> I need your help. I want to install validator.nu on a Debian Lenny 32bit, but during the python build/build.py all I am getting the following error:

> javac: no source files
> Usage: javac <options> <source files>
> use -help for a list of possible options
> "jar" cf "./htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar" @temp-jar-list
> 'c' flag requires manifest or input files to be specified!

The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the Java command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work. On Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/




From s.brueseke at proio.com  Fri May 28 07:57:35 2010
From: s.brueseke at proio.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Swen_Br=FCseke_-_proIO_Network_=26_eSolutions_e=2EK=2E?=)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 16:57:35 +0200
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: 22648229-256B-4743-818C-0ADC0887ED20@iki.fi
Message-ID: <20100528145735.6f83dd12@mail.proio.com>

Mit freundlichen Gr??en / With kind regards,

Swen Br?seke
> On May 28, 2010, at 16:44, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K.
> wrote:
> 
> > I need your help. I want to install validator.nu on a Debian Lenny 32bit,
> but during the python build/build.py all I am getting the following error:
> 
> > javac: no source files
> > Usage: javac <options> <source files>
> > use -help for a list of possible options
> > "jar" cf "./htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar" @temp-jar-list
> > 'c' flag requires manifest or input files to be specified!
> 
> The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the Java
> command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work. On
> Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.

I installed openjdk-6-jdk.

Diese E-Mail enth?lt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich gesch?tzte Informationen. 
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informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese Mail. 
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From hsivonen at iki.fi  Fri May 28 08:07:53 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 18:07:53 +0300
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: <20100528145735.6f83dd12@mail.proio.com>
References: <20100528145735.6f83dd12@mail.proio.com>
Message-ID: <01611373-385C-48F9-B795-22AB0E56A39C@iki.fi>

On May 28, 2010, at 17:57, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K. wrote:

>> The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the Java
>> command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work. On
>> Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.
> 
> I installed openjdk-6-jdk.

Does the Debian Java alternatives mechanism (/usr/sbin/update-java-alternatives) use openjdk-6-jdk as the preferred alternative?

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/




From s.brueseke at proio.com  Fri May 28 08:26:06 2010
From: s.brueseke at proio.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Swen_Br=FCseke_-_proIO_Network_=26_eSolutions_e=2EK=2E?=)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:26:06 +0200
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: 01611373-385C-48F9-B795-22AB0E56A39C@iki.fi
Message-ID: <20100528152606.dc410cd0@mail.proio.com>

> On May 28, 2010, at 17:57, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K.
> wrote:
> 
> >> The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the
> Java
> >> command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work.
> On
> >> Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.
> > 
> > I installed openjdk-6-jdk.
> 
> Does the Debian Java alternatives mechanism
> (/usr/sbin/update-java-alternatives) use openjdk-6-jdk as the preferred
> alternative?
> 
It looks that way:
c5-test1:/var/www/seitwert/validator/checker# update-alternatives --list java
/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/bin/java
/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/bin/java
c5-test1:/var/www/seitwert/validator/checker# update-alternatives --list javac
/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/bin/javac

Diese E-Mail enth?lt vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich gesch?tzte Informationen. 
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informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese Mail. 
Das unerlaubte Kopieren sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser Mail sind nicht gestattet. 

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From saurabh at skjworld.com  Sun May  2 23:18:02 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 11:48:02 +0530
Subject: [html5] Multiple Canvas objects in one Page
Message-ID: <t2m185b16f71005022318uca8d5f5bva297a72f16d2eb52@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I would like to know that if create 10 - 12 separate canvas in one page will
the browser work properly. Each canvas will have one complex animated layer
for a dashboard kind of thing. Does HTML 5 and browsers like Firefox, Google
Chrome, Safari support multiple canvas in one page without any performance
degradation.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From saurabh at skjworld.com  Mon May  3 03:40:20 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 16:10:20 +0530
Subject: [html5] Pasteboard support in HTML 5
Message-ID: <l2j185b16f71005030340yab0621dbtd5e7d3278080cc71@mail.gmail.com>

WebKit defines a pasteboard which gives the following 6 events:

   -

   onbeforecut
   -

   oncut
   -

   onbeforecopy
   -

   oncopy
   -

   onbeforepaste
   -

   onpaste

I could not find these in WHATWG HTML 5 index. Are they available in some
other form in HTML 5 or will HTML 5 not support them.

Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From eitanadlerlist at gmail.com  Tue May  4 13:21:12 2010
From: eitanadlerlist at gmail.com (Eitan Adler)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 23:21:12 +0300
Subject: [html5] inline lists - correct markup?
Message-ID: <AANLkTilOuPCV5YmQjczf5JRBo5NAKN6F7HbMMlPed59O@mail.gmail.com>

What is the appropriate way to mark up inline lists?
Something like:
"I went to the store and bought eggs, cheese, and milk."
or
"I added three things in order to help: blah, deblah, and more blah"

I could imagine something like
<style>
.il {
display:inline;
list-style-type:none;
}
</style>
I went to the store and bought <ul class="il"><li class="il">eggs,
</li><li class="il">cheese, </li><li class="il">and milk.</li></ul>
which seems a bit much.

Are <ul> and <ol> not meant to be used in this way?


From tatham at oddie.com.au  Wed May  5 18:22:59 2010
From: tatham at oddie.com.au (Tatham Oddie)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:22:59 -0400
Subject: [html5] Multiple Canvas objects in one Page
In-Reply-To: <t2m185b16f71005022318uca8d5f5bva297a72f16d2eb52@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2m185b16f71005022318uca8d5f5bva297a72f16d2eb52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8F713F6B2CE37349BBD122288FBD0154856C6A67@MBX02.netplexity.local>

This is a pretty open ended question, with the answer dependent upon exactly
what you're rendering into the canvas and each of the browser's
implementations.

 

IE9 is definitely targeting hardware accelerated rendering, however they
only have SVG support and not canvas.

 

FF have been showing some hardware acceleration, however I'm not sure what
areas they are focussing this on.

 

I have no idea about WebKit's (Chrome + Safari) progress in this area.

 

 

--

Tatham Oddie

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie

 

From: help-bounces at lists.whatwg.org [mailto:help-bounces at lists.whatwg.org]
On Behalf Of Saurabh Jain
Sent: Monday, 3 May 2010 4:18 PM
To: help at lists.whatwg.org
Subject: [html5] Multiple Canvas objects in one Page

 

Hi,

 

I would like to know that if create 10 - 12 separate canvas in one page will
the browser work properly. Each canvas will have one complex animated layer
for a dashboard kind of thing. Does HTML 5 and browsers like Firefox, Google
Chrome, Safari support multiple canvas in one page without any performance
degradation.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me

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From jai.ism at gmail.com  Wed May  5 18:27:49 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:27:49 -0700
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
Message-ID: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem or
clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage object. I
am curious how can I determine which object has changed from within the
onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function called because
localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object changed. storageArea
attribute to event object does not help.

-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From mgainty at hotmail.com  Wed May  5 18:33:02 2010
From: mgainty at hotmail.com (Martin Gainty)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:33:02 -0400
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU142-W1B39FB3839E583B79EF6AAEF50@phx.gbl>


you'll need a event listener which is hooked as a callback mechanism to respond to mouse or key events..information on events and how to hook listeners is discussed here
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-registration-html40

greetings,
Martin Gainty 
______________________________________________ 
Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de d?ni et de confidentialit?
 
Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
Ce message est confidentiel et peut ?tre privil?gi?. Si vous n'?tes pas le destinataire pr?vu, nous te demandons avec bont? que pour satisfaire informez l'exp?diteur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autoris?e ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert ? l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet l?galement obligatoire. ?tant donn? que les email peuvent facilement ?tre sujets ? la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilit? pour le contenu fourni.




Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:27:49 -0700
From: jai.ism at gmail.com
To: help at whatwg.org
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event

Hello,
I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem or clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage object. I am curious how can I determine which object has changed from within the onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function called because localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object changed. storageArea attribute to event object does not help.

-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
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From jai.ism at gmail.com  Wed May  5 18:39:14 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:39:14 -0700
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <BLU142-W1B39FB3839E583B79EF6AAEF50@phx.gbl>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU142-W1B39FB3839E583B79EF6AAEF50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <y2mb6958bd81005051839z97d120d0la3575aa21ae8503c@mail.gmail.com>

Right, I attach an event listener for the storage event like this:

addHandler(window,"storage",OnStorageHandler);

where addHandler attaches my OnStorageHandler function to storage event
type. Question is now how do I determine which object (localStorage or
sessionStorage) has changed from within the OnStorageHandler function.

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Martin Gainty <mgainty at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  you'll need a event listener which is hooked as a callback mechanism to
> respond to mouse or key events..information on events and how to hook
> listeners is discussed here
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-registration-html40
>
> greetings,
> Martin Gainty
> ______________________________________________
> Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de d?ni et de confidentialit?
>
> Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene
> Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte
> Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht
> dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine
> rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von
> E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
>
> Ce message est confidentiel et peut ?tre privil?gi?. Si vous n'?tes pas le destinataire pr?vu, nous te demandons avec bont? que pour satisfaire informez l'exp?diteur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autoris?e ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert ? l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet l?galement obligatoire. ?tant donn? que les email peuvent facilement ?tre sujets ? la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilit? pour le contenu fourni.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:27:49 -0700
>
> From: jai.ism at gmail.com
> To: help at whatwg.org
> Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem or
> clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage object. I
> am curious how can I determine which object has changed from within the
> onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function called because
> localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object changed. storageArea
> attribute to event object does not help.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Jaikishan
>
> ------------------------------
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
> inbox. See how.<http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2>
>



-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From ian at hixie.ch  Wed May  5 19:00:33 2010
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 02:00:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005060159130.8532@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Wed, 5 May 2010, Jaikishan Jalan wrote:
> 
> I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem 
> or clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage 
> object. I am curious how can I determine which object has changed from 
> within the onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function 
> called because localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object 
> changed. storageArea attribute to event object does not help.

You should be able to compare the storageArea attribute of the event 
against the localStorage and sessionStorage objects.

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From jai.ism at gmail.com  Thu May  6 10:21:21 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:21:21 -0700
Subject: [html5] OnStorage Event
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005060159130.8532@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <i2jb6958bd81005051827gc5034b03r4258ec3729231dba@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005060159130.8532@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <z2pb6958bd81005061021v63ec0203pad93eb56037b20cf@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Ian.  Yes, it does work. I was checking it in wrong way in my event
handler. The following works

    function OnStorageHandler() {
        if (event.storageArea == localStorage) {
            alert("localstorage");
        } else {
            if (event.storageArea == sessionStorage) {
                alert("sessionStorage");
            }
        }
    }

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:00 PM, Ian Hickson <ian at hixie.ch> wrote:

> On Wed, 5 May 2010, Jaikishan Jalan wrote:
> >
> > I understand that onstorage event will be invoked if setItem, removeItem
> > or clear is invoked on either sessionStorage object or localStorage
> > object. I am curious how can I determine which object has changed from
> > within the onstorage event handler. To be precise, is the function
> > called because localStorage object changed or sessionStorage object
> > changed. storageArea attribute to event object does not help.
>
> You should be able to compare the storageArea attribute of the event
> against the localStorage and sessionStorage objects.
>
> --
> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
> Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>



-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From eitanadlerlist at gmail.com  Thu May  6 11:25:44 2010
From: eitanadlerlist at gmail.com (Eitan Adler)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 21:25:44 +0300
Subject: [html5] <nav> and skiplinks
Message-ID: <q2qa0777e081005061125w435ce859v1965298ed43b76d6@mail.gmail.com>

Now that we have the <nav> element is it necessary to use skip links
for accessibility?


From jai.ism at gmail.com  Thu May  6 21:07:42 2010
From: jai.ism at gmail.com (Jaikishan Jalan)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 21:07:42 -0700
Subject: [html5] Draggable API dragend event
Message-ID: <h2gb6958bd81005062107gf6060c3dz7c4ef563bc964f34@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am curious how to determine if the drop event was successful in the
dragend event. In the example shown
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/, it remove the element on
dragend event. I want to drop the selected element only if the drop was
successful. On way is to do this ondrop event. But I feel like dragend is
really the place to do it.

-- 
Thanks,
Jaikishan
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From saurabh at skjworld.com  Sun May  9 03:52:37 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 16:22:37 +0530
Subject: [html5] 2D Canvas
Message-ID: <t2u185b16f71005090352q9f2e32b7t629dad3e55c71179@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Can anybody please tell me that if my software has the rectangle from x : 0,
y : 0 to x : 100 and Y : 100 in Java and I am porting it to HTML 5 Canvas
then should I add 0.5 to my coordinates or subtract to get a crisp rectangle
and keeping it still compatible with my Java graphics model? Taking whole
numbers is diffusing the rectangle stroke. In HTML 5 Canvas the coordinate
system starts at 0.5 or -0.5?
Also please can you tell me what is the reason for taking this diffusing
model where 50% stroke color goes to left coordinate and 50% goes towards
right coordinate. Does it not create a barrier to porting Java based
graphical applications since Java has no concept of co-ordinates at 0.5
pixels or its multiples.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From eltdav at gmail.com  Sun May  9 04:09:56 2010
From: eltdav at gmail.com (elton Davids)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 09:09:56 -0200
Subject: [html5] Seek employment
Message-ID: <AANLkTili3e71zet2KnJ3KSiVDApveMrQGLyakBEL4lqG@mail.gmail.com>

Do u people help with finding employment


From excors at gmail.com  Sun May  9 06:52:29 2010
From: excors at gmail.com (Philip Taylor)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 14:52:29 +0100
Subject: [html5] 2D Canvas
In-Reply-To: <t2u185b16f71005090352q9f2e32b7t629dad3e55c71179@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2u185b16f71005090352q9f2e32b7t629dad3e55c71179@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimXwU2NoW2plvLyX1MOTj14baeYB1UUkhXO2QWN@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Saurabh Jain <saurabh at skjworld.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> Can anybody please tell me that if my software has the rectangle from x : 0,
> y : 0 to x : 100 and Y : 100 in Java and I am porting it to HTML 5 Canvas
> then should I add 0.5 to my coordinates or subtract to get a crisp rectangle
> and keeping it still compatible with my Java graphics model? Taking whole
> numbers is diffusing the rectangle stroke. In HTML 5 Canvas the coordinate
> system starts at 0.5 or -0.5?

It starts at 0. Quoting from http://diveintohtml5.org/canvas.html :

  "Imagine each pixel as a large square. The whole-number coordinates
(0, 1, 2?) are the edges of the squares. If you draw a one-unit-wide
line between whole-number coordinates, it will overlap opposite sides
of the pixel square, and the resulting line will be drawn two pixels
wide. To draw a line that is only one pixel wide, you need to shift
the coordinates by 0.5 perpendicular to the line's direction."

The same applies to rectangles. If you're drawing a filled rectangle
then you want to use whole numbers for the corners, so the shape fills
the whole of the edge pixels; but if you're drawing a stroked
rectangle then you want to add 0.5, so the stroke lines are centered
in the middle of the edge pixels rather than overlapping two rows of
pixels.

-- 
Philip Taylor
excors at gmail.com


From saurabh at skjworld.com  Mon May 10 01:11:20 2010
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:41:20 +0530
Subject: [html5] Implementation of Text in Canvas inside Chrome and Firefox
Message-ID: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

There are multiple issues in setting font in Chrome and Firefox inside
Canvas. We are not able to set it as per WHATWG HTML 5 specification. Can
anybody let me know where to report these issues. Also till when is Canvas
expected to be completely supported in all major browsers specially Chrome
and Firefox.

-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.skjworld.com
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From hendry at iki.fi  Mon May 10 01:17:14 2010
From: hendry at iki.fi (Kai Hendry)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:17:14 +0100
Subject: [html5] Implementation of Text in Canvas inside Chrome and
	Firefox
In-Reply-To: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilTbd5JaHz5_27POV0rwOh6QV3218rNc2xp3KuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Report the bugs on their respective bug tracking systems.

http://webkit.org/quality/reporting.html
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/

I have encountered an odd canvas problem myself:
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33968


From srdubey at gmail.com  Tue May 11 01:34:45 2010
From: srdubey at gmail.com (Santosh Dube)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:04:45 +0530
Subject: [html5] Implementation of Text in Canvas inside Chrome and
	Firefox
In-Reply-To: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2k185b16f71005100111y297df189w3d8952d538dc6d2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinsWhYHpxBPJEWrBKfjDfsl2jMimmnFNuF4E-Ci@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Saurabh,

Currently HTML 5 not supported by all browser because it is currently a
working draft.
HTMl 5 Canvas tag supported by Fireforx 3.5, IE 9 and opera brrowsers.

Thanks & regards
Santosh Dube

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Saurabh Jain <saurabh at skjworld.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There are multiple issues in setting font in Chrome and Firefox inside
> Canvas. We are not able to set it as per WHATWG HTML 5 specification. Can
> anybody let me know where to report these issues. Also till when is Canvas
> expected to be completely supported in all major browsers specially Chrome
> and Firefox.
>
> --
> Saurabh Jain
> Director
> SKJ Technologies Private Limited
> http://www.skjworld.com
> Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
> http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>


-- 
Thanks & Regards,

Santosh Dube
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From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Wed May 12 10:27:54 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:27:54 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>

Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to
semantically separate my app's content from it's UI chrome. I could use
<form> but then even clicking a simple <button> submits the form's data when
what I'm creating is more of a stateful toolbar than a proper form.

To that end, is there something like <ui> already available, or in the
works, or a better solution that I'm not aware of?

Thanks,
Darcy Murphy
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From nziarek at gmail.com  Wed May 12 11:02:28 2010
From: nziarek at gmail.com (Nathan Ziarek)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:02:28 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B3DD6583-5330-416D-B8DB-745317A0DBE8@gmail.com>

I think, between the <nav>,<header>, and <footer> elements, HTML5 is  
looking pretty good for non-content page chrome.

Is there a scenario where these three elements don't fullfill your  
needs?

--
Nathan Ziarek
Sent from my iPhone 3GS

On May 12, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to  
> semantically separate my app's content from it's UI chrome. I could  
> use <form> but then even clicking a simple <button> submits the  
> form's data when what I'm creating is more of a stateful toolbar  
> than a proper form.
>
> To that end, is there something like <ui> already available, or in  
> the works, or a better solution that I'm not aware of?
>
> Thanks,
> Darcy Murphy
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org


From sahulbert at gmail.com  Wed May 12 13:48:54 2010
From: sahulbert at gmail.com (Scott Hulbert)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:48:54 -0700
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimETeIXZdP_dFsGSbOxIfj9CiN_HMSmQZ-Pc0z8@mail.gmail.com>

You should take a look at the Web Accessibility Initiative for Accessible
Rich Internet Applications:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAI-ARIA
http://www.w3.org/standards/techs/aria

Others may have better links, but it's my understanding that this
initiative's goal is to make web apps, which is what it seems you are
building, more accessible.

Best,
Scott Hulbert

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>wrote:

> Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to
> semantically separate my app's content from it's UI chrome. I could use
> <form> but then even clicking a simple <button> submits the form's data when
> what I'm creating is more of a stateful toolbar than a proper form.
>
> To that end, is there something like <ui> already available, or in the
> works, or a better solution that I'm not aware of?
>
> Thanks,
> Darcy Murphy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>
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From paradisaeidae at gmail.com  Wed May 12 16:31:28 2010
From: paradisaeidae at gmail.com (Mark T)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:31:28 +1000
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>

Ti group has been working on this issue:
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/XGR/

MarkT

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Recently I?came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag?in order to
--


From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Thu May 13 06:11:29 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 08:11:29 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>

Scott, Mark,

Thanks for the links.

ARIA is a great project because it works with what we already have in order
to produce better results but Accessibility, in and of itself, is not
exactly what I'm after. The XGR stuff looks interesting as well, but
overkill.

My biggest issue with web app development is that there is no line between
content and chrome. Ideally I'd love to see this:

<ui>
  <label>...</label>
  <input ... />
  ...
  <form ...>
    <label>...</label>
    <input ... />
    <input type="submit" />
  </form>
</ui>

Where the <ui> element can be hooked into by user agents and assistive
technologies to provide the same additional functionality that a <form> can
provide, but without requiring a submission to the server, and it can
contain multiple forms if necessary. With HTML5 being principled on
improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that in
this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having to
invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed. From what I
gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
creation.

I personally think that a <ui> tag could be a spiritual cousin to the newly
added <section>, <header>, <footer>, and <nav> elements. But I'm also aware
we're in the final call for comments, so I'm not expecting anyone to jump
through hoops for my idea. Thanks for listening and discussing the idea
though.

- Darcy

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Mark T <paradisaeidae at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ti group has been working on this issue:
> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/XGR/
>
> MarkT
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Recently I came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag in order to
> --
>
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From nziarek at gmail.com  Thu May 13 07:11:08 2010
From: nziarek at gmail.com (Nathan Ziarek)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:11:08 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>

> From what I
> gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> creation.

You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.

> With HTML5 being principled on
> improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that in
> this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having to
> invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.

This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.

I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
doesn't quite line up with my expectations.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?


From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Thu May 13 08:41:38 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:41:38 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>

Mostly I'm being an overly picky perfectionist, but in my opinion the
separation of content and chrome is where HTML falls apart from an
application development perspective. HTML5 was originally intended "to
address the need for one coherent development environment
for Web Applications" (
http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000005.html)
and it has made enormous strides towards that, so please don't think that
I'm discounting anything that's been done so far. However I feel strongly
that it's not quite as useful as it could be, and this one little tag that
I'm arguing for would do it (for me).

For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The toolbar
is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't
submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm
working with. For something as complex as http://280slides.com you can
clearly see that the only actual "document" on the page is the slide you're
currently working on, everything else is purely UI Chrome and I believe it
should be marked up as such, not as the ridiculous <div> soup that it is.

I think I understand what you're saying regarding HTML Documents having no
notion of AJAX and to a point I agree, but by that argument they also have
no notion of Javascript and to discount the importance of the new JS API's
in HTML5 would be wrong. Web apps aren't web apps these days without JS, and
subsequently, AJAX.

In order to build web apps properly we've been taught that pages need to
work over, around, and despite a wide array of inconsistently available
functionality ? that's the reality we live with in order to have extremely
interoperable apps (a computing achievement that shouldn't be looked down
upon). The additional tags in HTML5 don't violate that, and I don't believe
that a <ui> tag would either. All I'm thinking is that a subtle realignment
and enhancement regarding what part of an HTML document is content and which
part is chrome would be extremely valuable not only to us as developers but
also to our site's users.

- Darcy

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com> wrote:

> > From what I
> > gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> > creation.
>
> You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
> documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.
>
> > With HTML5 being principled on
> > improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that
> in
> > this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having
> to
> > invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.
>
> This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
> application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
> While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
> to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.
>
> I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
> that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
> be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
> elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
> change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
> doesn't quite line up with my expectations.
>
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?
>
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From nziarek at gmail.com  Thu May 13 09:07:51 2010
From: nziarek at gmail.com (Nathan Ziarek)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:07:51 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinIyDdD66E6ypvxYUIenAc9TFTTTGgSyx8AD8_7@mail.gmail.com>

For the record, I'm in favor of something like a <ui> element, I just
have no need for it :)

I tend to think of the elements of HTML5 in two camps: content (<p>,
<ul>, <h#>) and chrome (<nav>, <header>).

The content side of the equation has generic, non-semantic elements
(<span> and <div>) that can be used for any styling purpose.

It doesn't seem as if the chrome side has a generic, non-semantic
element for using the same way. That's where I think your <ui>
suggestion fits in: an open use element that indicates to any agent
that the stuff inside isn't part of the content.

Where I think we disagree is that the <ui> element should affect the
baseline actions of the content within. A <form> within a <ui> should
still submit as a page refresh unless rerouted by JS.

You are probably right that it's too late in the game to have
something like this added now, but it certainly isn't a bad idea. Keep
it around for HTML6 :)

nz

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mostly I'm being an overly picky perfectionist, but in my opinion the
> separation of content and chrome is where HTML falls apart from an
> application development perspective. HTML5 was originally intended "to
> address the need for one coherent development environment
> for Web Applications"
> (http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000005.html)
> and it has made enormous strides towards that, so please don't think that
> I'm discounting anything that's been done so far. However I feel strongly
> that it's not quite as useful as it could be, and this one little tag that
> I'm arguing for would do it (for me).
> For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The toolbar
> is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't
> submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm
> working with. For something as complex as http://280slides.com you can
> clearly see that the only actual "document" on the page is the slide you're
> currently working on, everything else is purely UI Chrome and I believe it
> should be marked up as such, not as the ridiculous <div> soup that it is.
> I think I understand what you're saying regarding HTML Documents having no
> notion of AJAX and to a point I agree, but by that argument they also have
> no notion of Javascript and to discount the importance of the new JS API's
> in HTML5 would be wrong. Web apps aren't web apps these days without JS, and
> subsequently, AJAX.
> In order to build web apps properly we've been taught that pages need to
> work over, around, and despite a wide array of inconsistently available
> functionality ? that's the reality we live with in order to have extremely
> interoperable apps (a computing achievement that shouldn't be looked down
> upon). The additional tags in HTML5 don't violate that, and I don't believe
> that a <ui> tag would either. All I'm thinking?is that a subtle realignment
> and enhancement regarding what part of an HTML document is content and which
> part is chrome would be extremely valuable not only to us as developers but
> also to our site's users.
> - Darcy
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > From what I
>> > gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
>> > creation.
>>
>> You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
>> documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.
>>
>> > With HTML5 being principled on
>> > improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that
>> > in
>> > this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having
>> > to
>> > invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.
>>
>> This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
>> application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
>> While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
>> to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.
>>
>> I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
>> that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
>> be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
>> elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
>> change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
>> doesn't quite line up with my expectations.
>>
>> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?
>
>


From mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com  Thu May 13 09:44:08 2010
From: mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com (Darcy Murphy)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:44:08 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinIyDdD66E6ypvxYUIenAc9TFTTTGgSyx8AD8_7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinIyDdD66E6ypvxYUIenAc9TFTTTGgSyx8AD8_7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimDW-rT-1METodoE9JaWltoBGpJg_sFJPOrwRDX@mail.gmail.com>

Yup, right on. All of it, even the <form> within a <ui> bit.

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com> wrote:

> For the record, I'm in favor of something like a <ui> element, I just
> have no need for it :)
>
> I tend to think of the elements of HTML5 in two camps: content (<p>,
> <ul>, <h#>) and chrome (<nav>, <header>).
>
> The content side of the equation has generic, non-semantic elements
> (<span> and <div>) that can be used for any styling purpose.
>
> It doesn't seem as if the chrome side has a generic, non-semantic
> element for using the same way. That's where I think your <ui>
> suggestion fits in: an open use element that indicates to any agent
> that the stuff inside isn't part of the content.
>
> Where I think we disagree is that the <ui> element should affect the
> baseline actions of the content within. A <form> within a <ui> should
> still submit as a page refresh unless rerouted by JS.
>
> You are probably right that it's too late in the game to have
> something like this added now, but it certainly isn't a bad idea. Keep
> it around for HTML6 :)
>
> nz
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Mostly I'm being an overly picky perfectionist, but in my opinion the
> > separation of content and chrome is where HTML falls apart from an
> > application development perspective. HTML5 was originally intended "to
> > address the need for one coherent development environment
> > for Web Applications"
> > (
> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000005.html)
> > and it has made enormous strides towards that, so please don't think that
> > I'm discounting anything that's been done so far. However I feel strongly
> > that it's not quite as useful as it could be, and this one little tag
> that
> > I'm arguing for would do it (for me).
> > For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The
> toolbar
> > is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't
> > submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm
> > working with. For something as complex as http://280slides.com you can
> > clearly see that the only actual "document" on the page is the slide
> you're
> > currently working on, everything else is purely UI Chrome and I believe
> it
> > should be marked up as such, not as the ridiculous <div> soup that it is.
> > I think I understand what you're saying regarding HTML Documents having
> no
> > notion of AJAX and to a point I agree, but by that argument they also
> have
> > no notion of Javascript and to discount the importance of the new JS
> API's
> > in HTML5 would be wrong. Web apps aren't web apps these days without JS,
> and
> > subsequently, AJAX.
> > In order to build web apps properly we've been taught that pages need to
> > work over, around, and despite a wide array of inconsistently available
> > functionality ? that's the reality we live with in order to have
> extremely
> > interoperable apps (a computing achievement that shouldn't be looked down
> > upon). The additional tags in HTML5 don't violate that, and I don't
> believe
> > that a <ui> tag would either. All I'm thinking is that a subtle
> realignment
> > and enhancement regarding what part of an HTML document is content and
> which
> > part is chrome would be extremely valuable not only to us as developers
> but
> > also to our site's users.
> > - Darcy
> > On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Nathan Ziarek <nziarek at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > From what I
> >> > gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> >> > creation.
> >>
> >> You are right here, but I think this is the way it should be. HTML
> >> documents are just structure. They don't have any notion of AJAX.
> >>
> >> > With HTML5 being principled on
> >> > improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd
> that
> >> > in
> >> > this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without
> having
> >> > to
> >> > invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed.
> >>
> >> This is the part I don't understand. When you write your web
> >> application, have the JavaScript return false to all submit events.
> >> While HTML5 will improve the ability to create apps, HTML is designed
> >> to scale and fall back through progressive enhancement.
> >>
> >> I think a <ui> element for semantic purposes -- telling search engines
> >> that this information isn't part of the content of the page -- could
> >> be useful (although I can't come up with a scenario where the new
> >> elements won't suffice for my uses). A <ui> element used only to
> >> change the default behavior of HTML (form submission, link navigation)
> >> doesn't quite line up with my expectations.
> >>
> >> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?
> >
> >
>
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From sagara1337 at gmail.com  Thu May 13 10:13:11 2010
From: sagara1337 at gmail.com (Sagara)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 20:13:11 +0300
Subject: [html5] How do you overcome the HTML form nesting limitation?
Message-ID: <AANLkTilJiXtzid4OxQS4uf6jtzd1-4nIv8MbChxqL26H@mail.gmail.com>

1. Why we don't allow nested forms in HTML5?

Problem is originally described at
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/597596/how-do-you-overcome-the-html-form-nesting-limitation
*In short author says:*

You are making a blog app and you have a form with some fields for creating
a new post and a toolbar with "actions" like "Save", "Delete", "Cancel".
Our objective is to write the form in a way that doesn't require javascript,
just plain old html form and submit buttons.
Since the action url is defined in the Form tag and not in each individual
submit button, our only option is to post to a generic url and then start
"if...then...else" to determine the name of the button that was submitted.
Not very elegant, but our only choice, since we don't want to rely on
javascript.

The only problem is that pressing "Delete", will submit ALL the form fields
on the server even though the only thing needed for this action is a Hidden
input with the post-id. Not very big deal in this small example, but I have
forms with hundreds (so to speak) of fields and tabs in my LOB applications
that (because of requirements) have to submit everything in one-go and in
any case this seems very inefficient and a waste. If form nesting was
supported, I would at least be able to wrap the "Delete" submit button
inside it's own form with only the post-id field.
---

One answer was to re-design the app so users could delete items without
opening them...
Another answer was to have the forms side by side on the page, but not
nested. then use CSS to make all the buttons line up pretty. But... it is "too
hackish. Plus in a very large page ... it's almost impossible to completely
separate the elements' screen position from their position in the document".
*2. So, is there any elegant solution in HTML5, without JavaScript, and with
several buttons to submit different sets of input fields (to the same or
different URL(s)?*
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From paradisaeidae at gmail.com  Thu May 13 15:01:32 2010
From: paradisaeidae at gmail.com (Mark T)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 08:01:32 +1000
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikZBeVMgeAwZKPgRSvyCJdBXCrfgmW1-iIzVrIZ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Darcy,
The 'html5 spec' is a subset of W3C and WHATWG suggestions.
One of the forms directions of the W3C is xforms.
In the direction you are asking for.
I've been trialling some javascript 'implants' of this.
As it is not likely to be part of browsers for a while.
Being a namespace implementation. it does not link .immediately. with
libs such as jquery.
Namespace is a handy thing.

http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms (Cannot get this
working in FFox...).
http://sourceforge.net/projects/xsltforms/ (Impressive, works 4 me in
FFox, mime-type issue in others (for me)).
http://www.w3.org/TR/XForms-for-HTML/

MarkT




On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Scott, Mark,
> Thanks for the links.
> ARIA is a great project because it works with what we already have in order
> to produce better results but Accessibility, in and of itself, is not
> exactly what I'm after. The XGR stuff looks interesting as well, but
> overkill.
> My biggest issue with web app development is that there is no line between
> content and chrome. Ideally I'd love to see this:
> <ui>
> ??<label>...</label>
> ??<input ... />
> ??...
> ??<form ...>
> ?? ?<label>...</label>
> ?? ?<input ... />
> ?? ?<input type="submit" />
> ??</form>
> </ui>
> Where the <ui> element can be hooked into by user agents and assistive
> technologies to provide the same additional functionality that a <form> can
> provide, but without requiring a submission to the server, and it can
> contain multiple forms if necessary. With HTML5 being principled on
> improving our ability to create Web Apps I found it strikingly odd that in
> this age of AJAX I cannot semantically group my controls without having to
> invoke a refresh of my page every time a button is pressed. From what I
> gathered the newly added tags are all still oriented towards document
> creation.
> I personally think that a <ui> tag could be a spiritual cousin to the newly
> added <section>, <header>, <footer>, and <nav> elements. But I'm also aware
> we're in the final call for comments, so I'm not expecting anyone to jump
> through hoops for my idea. Thanks for listening and discussing the idea
> though.
> - Darcy
> On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Mark T <paradisaeidae at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ti group has been working on this issue:
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/XGR/
>>
>> MarkT
>>
>> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Darcy Murphy <mrdarcymurphy at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Recently I?came up with the idea of using a <ui> tag?in order to
>> --
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>



-- 
(+61 4) 0679 5734
skype: govirtual.com.au
?????????Jingle ?!
It's a Jingle Out There!


From sagara1337 at gmail.com  Fri May 14 00:05:56 2010
From: sagara1337 at gmail.com (Sagara)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:05:56 +0300
Subject: [html5] How do you overcome the HTML form nesting limitation?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilJiXtzid4OxQS4uf6jtzd1-4nIv8MbChxqL26H@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilJiXtzid4OxQS4uf6jtzd1-4nIv8MbChxqL26H@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimlB1zAB-xRWdpLZQg8S8nU_hPO52EzmRoEjTyh@mail.gmail.com>

Form attribute (form owner) from HTML5 seems to solve the case.

Also I found interesting note
http://anderwald.info/internet/nesting-form-tags-in-xhtml/ - that (X)HTML
disallows nesting forms like "form > form", but allows "form > fieldset >
form", W3 validator <http://validator.w3.org/> says it is valid, but
browsers does not quite support this.

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 20:13, Sagara <sagara1337 at gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. Why we don't allow nested forms in HTML5?
>
> Problem is originally described at
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/597596/how-do-you-overcome-the-html-form-nesting-limitation
> *In short author says:*
>
> You are making a blog app and you have a form with some fields for creating
> a new post and a toolbar with "actions" like "Save", "Delete", "Cancel".
> Our objective is to write the form in a way that doesn't require
> javascript, just plain old html form and submit buttons.
> Since the action url is defined in the Form tag and not in each individual
> submit button, our only option is to post to a generic url and then start
> "if...then...else" to determine the name of the button that was submitted.
> Not very elegant, but our only choice, since we don't want to rely on
> javascript.
>
> The only problem is that pressing "Delete", will submit ALL the form fields
> on the server even though the only thing needed for this action is a Hidden
> input with the post-id. Not very big deal in this small example, but I have
> forms with hundreds (so to speak) of fields and tabs in my LOB applications
> that (because of requirements) have to submit everything in one-go and in
> any case this seems very inefficient and a waste. If form nesting was
> supported, I would at least be able to wrap the "Delete" submit button
> inside it's own form with only the post-id field.
> ---
>
> One answer was to re-design the app so users could delete items without
> opening them...
> Another answer was to have the forms side by side on the page, but not
> nested. then use CSS to make all the buttons line up pretty. But... it is "too
> hackish. Plus in a very large page ... it's almost impossible to completely
> separate the elements' screen position from their position in the document".
> *2. So, is there any elegant solution in HTML5, without JavaScript, and
> with several buttons to submit different sets of input fields (to the same
> or different URL(s)?*
>
>
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From designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk  Fri May 14 03:34:33 2010
From: designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk (designer)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 11:34:33 +0100
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
Message-ID: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>

Sorry if this is obvious, but a page I'm working on won't validate because 
of the mail link.

The validation error message is:

 Bad value mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem with 
RSPCA site
for attribute href on element a: WHITESPACE in QUERY.

the cut and pasted code is as follows:

<dd>N.B. If you have found a link which doesn't work, do please
        <a href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem 
with RSPCA site">TELL US</a>
        us about it</dd>

What am I doing wrong here? I've googled, but to no avail.

Thanks,

Bob 





From robertc at boogdesign.com  Fri May 14 04:02:15 2010
From: robertc at boogdesign.com (Rob Crowther)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:02:15 +0100
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
References: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
Message-ID: <4BED2DB7.1080808@boogdesign.com>

designer wrote:
>        <a href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem 
> with RSPCA site">TELL US</a>
> 
Use URL encoding:

<a href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?
subject=problem%20with%20RSPCA%20site">TELL US</a>

(Linebreak for formatting, should be all on one line)

> What am I doing wrong here? I've googled, but to no avail.
>
http://www.eskimo.com/~bloo/indexdot/html/topics/urlencoding.htm

Rob


From arlen.walker at gmail.com  Fri May 14 08:08:47 2010
From: arlen.walker at gmail.com (Arlen Walker)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:08:47 -0500
Subject: [html5] A <ui> Tag?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikJUzbCDRTCAFGWFnpd0MSrdDJNUnSE7LkrJtjJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilqo5uqvwJLzbrz0c23vRXn1ULpadWVVlc9x3uN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7E5bRlHx6jVNZmzW6PZvPst0389-5UCRL8aih@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikRDCGhVHSe58BSiuqDuFE-6PZDR_yaR55n-Vzv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiml4atsLKjFGBywZzYDM7e0BZAsYlZ84XcxkSQZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BBAEF806-731B-4BD3-A8D2-062608F31D7D@gmail.com>


On May 13, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Darcy Murphy wrote:

> For example consider a text area with a WYSIWYG toolbar atop it. The toolbar is clearly UI chrome, a collection of buttons and inputs, but it doesn't submit any information to the server, it only modifies the textarea I'm working with.

OK, isn't that sort of thing what <menu> and <command> are supposed to be for? Or am I not understanding something here?

Have Fun,
Arlen

------------------------------
In God we trust, all others must supply data



From robertc at boogdesign.com  Sun May 16 11:23:36 2010
From: robertc at boogdesign.com (Rob Crowther)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 19:23:36 +0100
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <000301caf520$bf0f9af0$0b01a8c0@gam>
References: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
	<4BED2DB7.1080808@boogdesign.com>
	<000301caf520$bf0f9af0$0b01a8c0@gam>
Message-ID: <4BF03828.8080107@boogdesign.com>

On 16/05/10 18:53, designer wrote:
> Thanks Rob, that fixed it. However, no-one has commented on the fact
> that the spaces are allowed in XHTML1.1? That's what confused me!
>

I would guess: the XHTML 1.1 spec allows a space separated list of URLs 
on the href attribute, whereas HTML5 allows only a single URL which may 
be surrounded by spaces.

Someone more familiar with XHTML 1.1 might know better.

Rob


From hsivonen at iki.fi  Mon May 17 04:33:49 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 04:33:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <000901caf351$0fefba30$0b01a8c0@gam>
Message-ID: <1078143545.202250.1274096029917.JavaMail.root@cm-mail03.mozilla.org>

"designer" <designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk> wrote:

> Sorry if this is obvious, but a page I'm working on won't validate
> because 
> of the mail link.
> 
> The validation error message is:
> 
>  Bad value mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem
> with 
> RSPCA site
> for attribute href on element a: WHITESPACE in QUERY.
> 
> the cut and pasted code is as follows:
> 
> <dd>N.B. If you have found a link which doesn't work, do please
>         <a
> href="mailto:designer at gwelanmor-internet.co.uk?subject=problem 
> with RSPCA site">TELL US</a>
>         us about it</dd>
> 
> What am I doing wrong here? I've googled, but to no avail.

According to the URI spec, you should escape space as %20 in URLs.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/


From hsivonen at iki.fi  Mon May 17 04:36:29 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 04:36:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [html5] failure to validate mail link?
In-Reply-To: <4BF03828.8080107@boogdesign.com>
Message-ID: <1159138174.202254.1274096189772.JavaMail.root@cm-mail03.mozilla.org>

"Rob Crowther" <robertc at boogdesign.com> wrote:

> On 16/05/10 18:53, designer wrote:
> > Thanks Rob, that fixed it. However, no-one has commented on the
> fact
> > that the spaces are allowed in XHTML1.1? That's what confused me!
> >
> 
> I would guess: the XHTML 1.1 spec allows a space separated list of
> URLs 
> on the href attribute, whereas HTML5 allows only a single URL which
> may 
> be surrounded by spaces.
> 
> Someone more familiar with XHTML 1.1 might know better.

XHTML 1.1 has less advance validation tools available for it, so the URL syntax is not checked.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/


From csolisr at gmail.com  Sat May 22 20:02:45 2010
From: csolisr at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Carlos_Andr=E9s_Sol=EDs?=)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 21:02:45 -0600
Subject: [html5] About possible formats for multiple audio and subtitle
	streams for HTML5
Message-ID: <AANLkTimrqJlDXLxWfWHvVNWLMGEu1l4rikDfbxNmSOdx@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, I've been writing lately in the WHATWG and WebM mail-lists and would
like to hear your opinion on the following idea.
Imagine a hypothetical website that delivers videos in multiple languages.
Like on a DVD, where you can choose your audio and subtitles language. And
also imagine there is the possibility of downloading a file with the video,
along with either the chosen audio/sub tracks, or all of them at once. Right
now, though, there's no way to deliver multiple audio and subtitle streams
on HTML5 and WebM. Since the latter supports only one audio and one video
track, with no embedded subtitles, creating a file with multiple tracks is
impossible, unless using full Matroska instead of WebM - save for the fact
that the standard proposed is WebM and not Matroska.
A solution could be to stream the full Matroska with all tracks embedded.
This, though, would be inefficient, since the user often will select only
one language to view the video, and there's no way yet to stream only the
selected tracks to the user. I have thought of two solutions for this:
* Solution 1: Server-side demuxing. The video with all tracks is stored as a
Matroska file. The server demuxes the file, generates a new one with the
chosen tracks, and streams only the tracks chosen by the user. When the user
chooses to download the full video, the full Matroska file is downloaded
with no overhead. The downside is the server-side demuxing and remuxing;
fortunately most users only need to choose once. Also, there's the problem
of having to download the full file instead of a file with only the tracks
wanted; this could be solved by even more muxing.
* Solution 2: User-side muxing. Each track (video, audio, subtitles) is
stored in standalone files. The server streams the tracks chosen by the
user, and the web browser muxes them back. When the user chooses to download
the video, the generation of the file can be done either server-side or
client-side. This can be very dynamic but will force content providers to
use extra coding inside of the pages.

Now for part two, there is still an issue on which format should be used for
subtitling. As you might know, there are basic subtitle formats that are
formed by timed plain text and little else (like SRT or the proposed
WebSRT), and there are full-blown subtitle formats that allow for extreme
formatting and typesetting (like Advanced SubStation Alpha). The basic
subtitles have the advantage of being easily editable by hand, but
sacrificing capabilities that advanced formats allow with the cost of
harder-to-understand syntax. It would be a shame to drop advanced subtitles
from the HTML5 specs, but it would be bothersome if everybody is forced to
use a complex-to-write format. So a middle ground could be handy: allowing
WebSRT for the simple tasks, and using another format for advanced
typesetting. To put an example, ASSA allows to modify the text font, size,
border, shadow, scale, rotation, position, and some other properties; it
also allows movement of text, text animation, karaoke, and even some
vectorial graphing. But all of that could be achieved with HTML5 programming
on top of the WebSRT format (or whichever gets chosen). This, of course,
causes a pair of problems.
* The first one is that there would be no tools to edit HTML5 subtitles
specifically, forcing to make a type of subset which would have to be
standardized, plus an editor to be able to create such subtitles without
having to learn how to create a full-blown website.
* The second one is that media players that wanted to use such subtitles
would be forced to ship an HTML5 decoder. Most media players are NOT web
browsers, though, or based on one either. The only exceptions I remember are
media players built on top of XUL, like Songbird or Nightingale. But players
like WMP, WinAmp, VLC, Xine family, GStreamer family or MPlayer family would
be left out, since they have no need (and no time) to plug in a web browser
in a program that hasn't needed it.

And that would be the end of my brainstorming. Any ideas or suggestions?
- Carlos Sol?s
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From davidjohnburrowes at gmail.com  Thu May 27 09:53:59 2010
From: davidjohnburrowes at gmail.com (David John Burrowes)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 09:53:59 -0700
Subject: [html5] Newbie question about SharedWorkers
Message-ID: <D101908A-9CA4-4FC0-A90E-B8E6F8FAB006@gmail.com>

Hello all,

I'm making my way through the spec about Workers, and have a question about SharedWorkers.


The spec makes various references to shared workers being used by multiple pages in parallel.  My question is can a shared worker be used by two sequentially accessed pages?  My reading of the spec says "no", but my intuition about what behavior I would "expect" says I should be able to.  Is my reading of the spec right?

Here's an example:
	We have two pages: P1 and P2 (from the same origin etc)
	P1 has a link to P2 on it (<a href="P2">) 

	Both P1 and P2 reference a shared worker SW

	When the user gets page P1, then SW is created.
	User then clicks on the link to P2

My interpretation of the spec says that when this link is clicked, P1 will be made no longer active, so it will be removed from SW's list of Documents.  This will leave SW's list empty, which will make it no longer a permissable worker. It's closing flag will be set to true, and presumably there's a chance it will be destroyed before P2 can be loaded and access SW.  So, P2 will need to re-create SW.

It seems desirable to me that if a page transition is being made between pages with compatible origins, that a shared worker would be preserved across them, allowing complex calculations being done by the worker to be shared by the pages (obviously, the worker could be storing its work in a database, and then reloading that when it is created.  But, that seems like overkill)

Thoughts?

David



From s.brueseke at proio.com  Fri May 28 06:44:51 2010
From: s.brueseke at proio.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Swen_Br=FCseke_-_proIO_Network_=26_eSolutions_e=2EK=2E?=)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:44:51 +0200
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
Message-ID: <20100528134451.da4c5aba@mail.proio.com>

Hi mailinglist,

I need your help. I want to install validator.nu on a Debian Lenny 32bit, but during the python build/build.py all I am getting the following error:

"javac" -g -nowarn -classpath "./dependencies/commons-codec-1.3/commons-codec-1.3.jar:./dependencies/commons-httpclient-3.1/commons-httpclient-3.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-adapters-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-api-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-charsets-4_0.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-4_0.jar:./dependencies/iri-0.5/lib/iri.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/servlet-api-2.5-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-util-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/ext/jetty-ajp-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/apache-log4j-1.2.15/log4j-1.2.15.jar:./dependencies/rhino1_7R1/js.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xercesImpl.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xml-apis.jar:./dependencies/slf4j-1.5.2/slf4j-log4j12-1.5.2.jar:./dependencies/commons-fileupload-1.2.1/lib/commons-fileupload-1.2.1.jar:./dependencies/isorelax.jar:./dependencies/mozilla/intl/chardet/java/dist/lib/chardet.jar:./dependencies/saxon9.jar:./dependencies/jsontools-core-1.5.jar:./dependencies/antlr.jar:./dependencies/xom-1.1.jar:./dependencies/junit-4.4.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant-launcher.jar:jing-trang/build/jing.jar" -sourcepath "./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/src" -d "./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/classes" @temp-javac-list
Note: ./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/src/org/whattf/datatype/IriRef.java uses or overrides a deprecated API.
Note: Recompile with -Xlint:deprecation for details.
"jar" cf "./syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/dist/html5-datatypes.jar" @temp-jar-list
"javac" -g -nowarn -classpath "./dependencies/commons-codec-1.3/commons-codec-1.3.jar:./dependencies/commons-httpclient-3.1/commons-httpclient-3.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-adapters-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-api-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-charsets-4_0.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-4_0.jar:./dependencies/iri-0.5/lib/iri.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/servlet-api-2.5-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-util-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/ext/jetty-ajp-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/apache-log4j-1.2.15/log4j-1.2.15.jar:./dependencies/rhino1_7R1/js.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xercesImpl.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xml-apis.jar:./dependencies/slf4j-1.5.2/slf4j-log4j12-1.5.2.jar:./dependencies/commons-fileupload-1.2.1/lib/commons-fileupload-1.2.1.jar:./dependencies/isorelax.jar:./dependencies/mozilla/intl/chardet/java/dist/lib/chardet.jar:./dependencies/saxon9.jar:./dependencies/jsontools-core-1.5.jar:./dependencies/antlr.jar:./dependencies/xom-1.1.jar:./dependencies/junit-4.4.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant-launcher.jar:./jars/html5-datatypes.jar:jing-trang/build/jing.jar" -sourcepath "./syntax/non-schema/java/src" -d "./syntax/non-schema/java/classes" @temp-javac-list
"jar" cf "./syntax/non-schema/java/dist/non-schema.jar" @temp-jar-list
"javac" -g -nowarn -classpath "./dependencies/commons-codec-1.3/commons-codec-1.3.jar:./dependencies/commons-httpclient-3.1/commons-httpclient-3.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-adapters-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/commons-logging-1.1.1/commons-logging-api-1.1.1.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-charsets-4_0.jar:./dependencies/icu4j-4_0.jar:./dependencies/iri-0.5/lib/iri.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/servlet-api-2.5-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/jetty-util-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/jetty-6.1.11/lib/ext/jetty-ajp-6.1.11.jar:./dependencies/apache-log4j-1.2.15/log4j-1.2.15.jar:./dependencies/rhino1_7R1/js.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xercesImpl.jar:./dependencies/xerces-2_9_1/xml-apis.jar:./dependencies/slf4j-1.5.2/slf4j-log4j12-1.5.2.jar:./dependencies/commons-fileupload-1.2.1/lib/commons-fileupload-1.2.1.jar:./dependencies/isorelax.jar:./dependencies/mozilla/intl/chardet/java/dist/lib/chardet.jar:./dependencies/saxon9.jar:./dependencies/jsontools-core-1.5.jar:./dependencies/antlr.jar:./dependencies/xom-1.1.jar:./dependencies/junit-4.4.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant.jar:./dependencies/apache-ant-1.7.0/lib/ant-launcher.jar" -sourcepath "./htmlparser/src" -d "./htmlparser/classes" @temp-javac-list
javac: no source files
Usage: javac <options> <source files>
use -help for a list of possible options
"jar" cf "./htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar" @temp-jar-list
'c' flag requires manifest or input files to be specified!
Usage: jar {ctxui}[vfm0Me] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [entry-point] [-C dir] files ...
Options:
    -c  create new archive
    -t  list table of contents for archive
    -x  extract named (or all) files from archive
    -u  update existing archive
    -v  generate verbose output on standard output
    -f  specify archive file name
    -m  include manifest information from specified manifest file
    -e  specify application entry point for stand-alone application
        bundled into an executable jar file
    -0  store only; use no ZIP compression
    -M  do not create a manifest file for the entries
    -i  generate index information for the specified jar files
    -C  change to the specified directory and include the following file
If any file is a directory then it is processed recursively.
The manifest file name, the archive file name and the entry point name are
specified in the same order as the 'm', 'f' and 'e' flags.

Example 1: to archive two class files into an archive called classes.jar:
       jar cvf classes.jar Foo.class Bar.class
Example 2: use an existing manifest file 'mymanifest' and archive all the
           files in the foo/ directory into 'classes.jar':
       jar cvfm classes.jar mymanifest -C foo/ .

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "build/build.py", line 1015, in <module>
    buildAll()
  File "build/build.py", line 762, in buildAll
    buildHtmlParser()
  File "build/build.py", line 499, in buildHtmlParser
    classPath)
  File "build/build.py", line 273, in buildModule
    shutil.copyfile(jarFile, os.path.join(buildRoot, "jars", jarName + ".jar"))
  File "/usr/lib/python2.5/shutil.py", line 46, in copyfile
    fsrc = open(src, 'rb')
IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: './htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar'

The file is indeed missing. Thanks for any help!

Mit freundlichen Gr??en / With kind regards,

Swen Br?seke

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From hsivonen at iki.fi  Fri May 28 07:52:20 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:52:20 +0300
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: <20100528134451.da4c5aba@mail.proio.com>
References: <20100528134451.da4c5aba@mail.proio.com>
Message-ID: <22648229-256B-4743-818C-0ADC0887ED20@iki.fi>

On May 28, 2010, at 16:44, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K. wrote:

> I need your help. I want to install validator.nu on a Debian Lenny 32bit, but during the python build/build.py all I am getting the following error:

> javac: no source files
> Usage: javac <options> <source files>
> use -help for a list of possible options
> "jar" cf "./htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar" @temp-jar-list
> 'c' flag requires manifest or input files to be specified!

The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the Java command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work. On Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/




From s.brueseke at proio.com  Fri May 28 07:57:35 2010
From: s.brueseke at proio.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Swen_Br=FCseke_-_proIO_Network_=26_eSolutions_e=2EK=2E?=)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 16:57:35 +0200
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: 22648229-256B-4743-818C-0ADC0887ED20@iki.fi
Message-ID: <20100528145735.6f83dd12@mail.proio.com>

Mit freundlichen Gr??en / With kind regards,

Swen Br?seke
> On May 28, 2010, at 16:44, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K.
> wrote:
> 
> > I need your help. I want to install validator.nu on a Debian Lenny 32bit,
> but during the python build/build.py all I am getting the following error:
> 
> > javac: no source files
> > Usage: javac <options> <source files>
> > use -help for a list of possible options
> > "jar" cf "./htmlparser/dist/htmlparser.jar" @temp-jar-list
> > 'c' flag requires manifest or input files to be specified!
> 
> The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the Java
> command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work. On
> Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.

I installed openjdk-6-jdk.

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From hsivonen at iki.fi  Fri May 28 08:07:53 2010
From: hsivonen at iki.fi (Henri Sivonen)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 18:07:53 +0300
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: <20100528145735.6f83dd12@mail.proio.com>
References: <20100528145735.6f83dd12@mail.proio.com>
Message-ID: <01611373-385C-48F9-B795-22AB0E56A39C@iki.fi>

On May 28, 2010, at 17:57, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K. wrote:

>> The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the Java
>> command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work. On
>> Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.
> 
> I installed openjdk-6-jdk.

Does the Debian Java alternatives mechanism (/usr/sbin/update-java-alternatives) use openjdk-6-jdk as the preferred alternative?

-- 
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen at iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/




From s.brueseke at proio.com  Fri May 28 08:26:06 2010
From: s.brueseke at proio.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Swen_Br=FCseke_-_proIO_Network_=26_eSolutions_e=2EK=2E?=)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:26:06 +0200
Subject: [html5] Problem with missing htmlparser.jar on Debian Lenny
In-Reply-To: 01611373-385C-48F9-B795-22AB0E56A39C@iki.fi
Message-ID: <20100528152606.dc410cd0@mail.proio.com>

> On May 28, 2010, at 17:57, Swen Br?seke - proIO Network & eSolutions e.K.
> wrote:
> 
> >> The build script requires truly Sun/Oracle-compatible versions of the
> Java
> >> command line tools. In particular, Debian's fastjar is known not to work.
> On
> >> Ubuntu, the tools from OpenJDK are known to work.
> > 
> > I installed openjdk-6-jdk.
> 
> Does the Debian Java alternatives mechanism
> (/usr/sbin/update-java-alternatives) use openjdk-6-jdk as the preferred
> alternative?
> 
It looks that way:
c5-test1:/var/www/seitwert/validator/checker# update-alternatives --list java
/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/bin/java
/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/bin/java
c5-test1:/var/www/seitwert/validator/checker# update-alternatives --list javac
/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/bin/javac

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