, ,

, or perhaps something else. But not a heading, please. > But maybe I can change my thinking about the logo's importance in an > HTML5 document? This is not about importance. You're not supposed to indicate the importance of elements by the use of heading elements - such attempts date back to the mid-1990s, when heading markup was the only way to make texts appear in different sizes. I'm talking about the _old_ times here, before the invention of . It's time to let those times and the old-time use of heading markup go. -- Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ From jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi Sun May 15 23:45:50 2011 From: jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi (Jukka K. Korpela) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 09:45:50 +0300 Subject: [html5] Template questions... In-Reply-To: <4DD0C128.6010105@kolumbus.fi> References: <4DD0C128.6010105@kolumbus.fi> Message-ID: <4DD0C81E.6070606@kolumbus.fi> 16.5.2011 9:16, Jukka K. Korpela wrote: >> 2. Can I use

within an tag? > > Yes, but should you Oops, I forgot to complete this part... What I meant to say is that a construct like ... is _allowed_ in HTML5, but the question is whether it would make sense and be useful. I won't discuss the rendering and usability issue here, as it is a general problem with "block links" ( with block-like elements inside it): what will it look like, and will users recognize it as a link, and will they recognize it as _a_ link (and not several separate links, due to possible appearance of separate underlined texts). The _specific_ issue here is what the heading group would link to. It is difficult to imagine good uses for such links - as opposite to, say, combinations of texts and images that act as a news or ad "teaser" and acting as a single link to the full news article or advertorial. If the href value "#" is to be taken nominally and not just a placeholder, then the link would point to the start of the document. That is allowed in HTML5, as in previous versions of HTML, but it is seldom useful. "Back to start [of page]" links are generally unnecessary and potentially very confusing. Even the naive separate "Back to start" or "Back to top" links are less confusing! At least they make it obvious that they are not normal links. -- Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ From saurabh at skjworld.com Mon May 16 04:48:19 2011 From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 17:18:19 +0530 Subject: [html5] Editor for specifications and request to start HTML 5 user groups Message-ID: Hi, I would like to offer my time to be an editor for companion specifications. I came across WHATWG request for editors on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Companion_specifications. I have written India's first book on J2ME and have been into HTML 5 and cloud computing for last few years. I would like to edit a specification like any CSS extention, registries, JS Changes, Animated GIFs or API for syntax highlighting. My background is into mobile gaming, j2me, web architectures, user interfaces and finance related software. JavaScript, user interfaces, scalable architectures are my forte. So you can tell me which of the above referred topics you can make me an editor off. You may also refer any other topics to me based on my experience profile. Also let me know the responsibilities and benefits of being an editor. Also will this be directly under WHATWG or will it be under W3C etc. Do give me some idea of the amount of time I will have to devote so that I can schedule for that time accordingly. Also I would like to start HTML 5 user groups in India and specially in and around Delhi area. Is there any official WHATWG or W3C user group list or support program for user groups. Would you people be able to provide us any help with respect to speakers. I can speak on HTML 5 for hours and have been taking OpenClass events and mentoring sessions regularly on HTML 5, Social Media Marketing and Cloud Computing. I am also the founder of the Amazon Web Services User Group Delhi NCR. Amazon is sending its speaker for the event on 15th May in my office in Delhi. I have the proper infrastructure for hosting user group events in Delhi. I also have requisite knowledge for speaking at such user groups events and marketing such user group events. Looking forward to hearing from you. -- Saurabh Jain Director SKJ Technologies Private Limited http://www.openclass.in http://www.facebook.com/openpad Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME) http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ian at hixie.ch Mon May 16 12:57:15 2011 From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:57:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [html5] Editor for specifications and request to start HTML 5 user groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2011, Saurabh Jain wrote: > > I would like to offer my time to be an editor for companion specifications. > I came across WHATWG request for editors on > http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Companion_specifications. I have written India's > first book on J2ME and have been into HTML 5 and cloud computing for last > few years. I would like to edit a specification like any CSS extention, > registries, JS Changes, Animated GIFs or API for syntax highlighting. Great! If you would like to edit CSS specifications, your best plan is to contact www-style at w3.org, the mailing list at the W3C where CSS is discussed. If you're interested in working on registries, the easiest way to start is probably to start filling in this page based on what MIME types people are actually using in the wild: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Registry-MIME-types This would involve doing some research to find out what types are common, documenting what the types mean and whether they're widely used or only supported by a limited set of tools (or indeed only used by one tool), and finding links to further documentation for the formats. Once we have a lot of documented types, the idea is to start submitting registration requests to the IANA MIME type registry to get the IANA registry up to speed. If you are looking at working on JavaScript, the best place to start is contacting the TC-39 working group: http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/TC39.htm If you are interested in writing a specification for Animated GIFs, the best place to start is probably reverse engineering how existing browsers and image editors handle animated GIFs, and documenting it in a public document. You are welcome to use the WHATWG wiki for this if you like. If you would like to work on a specification for a syntax highlighting API for Web-based text editors (using

or contenteditable="") the 
best thing to do is to start prototyping how such an API would work. I 
recommend working with Aryeh (AryehGregor in #whatwg on Freenode IRC), who 
is working on other editing aspects at the moment.

> Also let me know the responsibilities and benefits of being an editor.

Reponsibilities: Reverse-engineering existing implementations and working 
with implementors to make sure the specs match reality is the main one.

Benefits: I find it fun. I don't know about other people. :-)

> Also will this be directly under WHATWG or will it be under W3C etc.

The W3C may be interested. You're certainly welcome to use the WHATWG 
services; should it be helpful, I can also set up new mailing lists or 
provide hosting for specs on the WHATWG site.

> Do give me some idea of the amount of time I will have to devote so that 
> I can schedule for that time accordingly.

There's basically an infinite amount of work, so it can take as much time 
as you want.

> Also I would like to start HTML 5 user groups in India and specially in 
> and around Delhi area. Is there any official WHATWG or W3C user group 
> list or support program for user groups.

There's no programme set up as far as I know, but if you would like to 
start one that would be fantastic. I'd be very happy to provide logistical 
support in terms of mailing lists for coordinating between user groups, 
sharing advice, and so forth, or Web sites, or whatever such a group 
needs. Let me know how I can help.

> Would you people be able to provide us any help with respect to 
> speakers.

This page may be of use:

http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Presentations#Speakers

However, if you would like to make a wider call you are welcome to post on 
the WHATWG blog or Twitter feed. Give us a shout on the aforementioned IRC 
channel and someone will set you up.

HTH,
-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

From admin at blueboden.com  Mon May 16 13:09:37 2011
From: admin at blueboden.com (Jacob Kristensen)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 22:09:37 +0200
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <4DD0C543.2060000@kolumbus.fi>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikvrsoyJAndeBAqr8ZumfMPMani5g@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DD0C543.2060000@kolumbus.fi>
Message-ID: <F857C93298C74AEDB5A2C1F70A6C5FCF@B1>

Multiple h1s on a page will generally NOT harm a site's placement. Unless 
really doing strange things, (I'dd say, like replacing strong and em with h1 
elements).
Matt cutts also talked about this on GoogleWebmasterHelp's youtube channel, 
he said something insane like, "unless your entire page is h1."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM - More then one h1, good or bad?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR5itZlq8sk - Does the ordering of heading 
tags matter?

You could also ask yourselves this: "How long do i/we expect this 
website/design to run for?"
A lot of sites don't really change for a long time. However, search engines 
and browsers change constantly.

Don't develop your site for the search engines, focus on what works the best 
for your site/app, and what is likely to work in the future.

Jacob Kristensen
http://blueboden.com/

From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Mon May 16 14:08:19 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 14:08:19 -0700
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <4DD0C543.2060000@kolumbus.fi>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikvrsoyJAndeBAqr8ZumfMPMani5g@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DD0C543.2060000@kolumbus.fi>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinTHKsk=AeXBAg7Thx1dmeRifn-GQ@mail.gmail.com>

DOH, I forgot to "reply to all".

================

Hi Jukka! Thank you for the help, I really appreciate it. :)

See my replies inline below.

On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 11:16 PM, Jukka K. Korpela
<jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi> wrote:
> It lacks a !DOCTYPE and the <title> element. (It is apparently meant to be a
> template, so it should surely be a complete template.)

DOH! Sorry about that! :D

I guess I was trying to avoid any confusion by leaving out the
boilerplate stuff.

When I get home later tonight I will fork Ricardo's version and
include the missing bits. :)

Sorry about that.

> Many people recommend the use of start and end tags for <html>, <head>, and
> <body> elements. This is largely a matter of style. But I think there is
> almost always a reason to use the <html> tag, so that you can put a lang
> attribute there.

Definitely! I did not realize that much of that could be left out.
Hehe, I am not sure if I could even force myself to leave out <html>,
<head> and <body>!

>> 1. What do you think about the usage of the H1? In this case, is it a
>> problem to have multiple per page?
> Using <h1> inside <article> effectively lowers its rank with respect to the
> page as a whole. Though such usage is well-defined and allowed in HTML5, its
> main purpose is to allow inclusing of articles into a document without
> changing their heading markup. This is fine and useful in the long run, but

Ahh, that's why I was asking actually... It would make templating via
my CMS a little easier if I could re-use the same HTML markup from the
"permalink" page (which would be an H1 tag).

> it's just pointlessly risky at present. Current browsers, assistive software
> etc. will blindly treat <h1> as rank 1 heading, without paying attention to
> its appearing inside <article>. You might make them _appear_ as lower-rank
> headings, if you use carefully crafted CSS (and your stylesheet actually
> gets applied), but it's just an indirect way of partially achieving
> something that is best achieved directly.

Great points!

I think this is where one would say "I can't wait for HTML5 to be the norm".

For now, I think I would like to markup my pages with the future in
mind, but I definitely don't want to thumb my nose at the present.

> So it would be safer to write, say,
> <hgroup>
>  <h1>Article title<br>
>  <small>Subhead</small>
>  </h1>
>  <time>...</time>
> </hgroup>

Ooooh, I like that! Seems like a good spot to use <small>.

I am also happy to see that you included <time> in the <hgroup>. I was
under the assumption that <hgroup> could only contain H* tags. I am
glad to see that other tags can be put in there too.

Just out of curiosity, what are you thoughts about using <hgroup> when
there is only one <H*> tag?

For some reason the name "hgroup" makes me think "only headings and
nothing else".

> Some people probably question the use of <br> here (is it really a line
> break in the content itself - well, it's structural division if division of
> ...<snip>...
> present) and should render reasonably even without CSS, and could be styled
> with CSS easily, without unnecessarily complicated selectors.

I dig your example for sure.

I like you point about "render reasonably even without CSS".

When developing HTML/CSS, I usually like to turn off CSS to see how
things look... In the code example, from my first post, the
block-level <a> was looking pretty horrid when styles were disabled.

Before I contacted this list, I was experimenting with something like
this (code abbreviated for sake of example):

<h*>
<a><time>...</time>  /  <strong>TITLE</strong>  / 
<span>SUBHEAD</span></a>
</h*>

Like your example, the above renders nicely when CSS is disabled. Of
course, the <h*> would vary depending on the page (index page listing
articles and/or permalink page).

>> 2. Can I use<hgroup>  within an<a>  tag?
> Yes, but should you

Good question. Probably not. :D

>> 3. Thoughts on wrapping time with an H3?
> In practice, it makes the time notation a 3rd-rank heading on current
> ...<snip>...
> of the heading as a whole (heading group). But as a practical move... it
> means taking risks with little if anything that you could possibly win.

I like they way you think! Thanks for the feedback. :)

> ...<snip>..
> the semantically empty <div>. While that's OK in the long run, well, the run
> _is_ going to be long...

Ha! I personally can't wait!

The more I use HTML5, the more I love it.

HTML5 is definitely a change in thinking for me from HTML4... There's
lots more to think about, semantically, when sculpting a page; this is
like a double-edged sword for a perfectionist like me!

> However, you could use <p> instead of <div> here, as this seems to be the
> HTML5 way in matters like this. And it only costs setting margin: 0 for the
> ...<snip>...
> <time> elements directly. I don't think you need to be more cross-browser
> than that, in such issues, as modern browsers let you style <time> directly.

Awesome info!

I have actually been playing around with Modernizr, so, like you say,
I might just style the time directly.

Thanks so much for the help Jukka (and everyone), I really appreciate it!!!!

From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Mon May 16 14:10:17 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 14:10:17 -0700
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <4DD0C81E.6070606@kolumbus.fi>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DD0C128.6010105@kolumbus.fi> <4DD0C81E.6070606@kolumbus.fi>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimqoYwPxXdt=tTyiwQ3110ahWc0WQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Jukka K. Korpela
<jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>>> 2. Can I use<hgroup> within an<a> tag?
>> Yes, but should you
> Oops, I forgot to complete this part...
> ...<snip>...

You've sold me on not using <a> like I was doing before.

I think it is cool that this feature is allowed in HTML5, but I see
now that it should be avoided.

Thanks again!!! :)

Cheers,
Micky

From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Mon May 16 14:13:27 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 14:13:27 -0700
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <F857C93298C74AEDB5A2C1F70A6C5FCF@B1>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikvrsoyJAndeBAqr8ZumfMPMani5g@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DD0C543.2060000@kolumbus.fi>
	<F857C93298C74AEDB5A2C1F70A6C5FCF@B1>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinKT1M6_mYSd6GSz=+Tj9VdrpH6=w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jacob! Thanks so much for the help/reply, I really appreciate it. :)

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Jacob Kristensen <admin at blueboden.com> wrote:
> Multiple h1s on a page will generally NOT harm a site's placement. Unless
> really doing strange things, (I'dd say, like replacing strong and em with h1
> ...<snip>...
> Don't develop your site for the search engines, focus on what works the best
> for your site/app, and what is likely to work in the future.

Thanks for those video links and for the excellent advice.

Watching videos now.

Much appreciated! :)

Have a great day!

Cheers,
Micky

From shwetankd at opera.com  Mon May 16 14:26:19 2011
From: shwetankd at opera.com (Shwetank Dixit)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 23:26:19 +0200
Subject: [html5] Editor for specifications and request to start HTML 5
 user groups
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinzqW-5xPcCjA8wHmJgwVGSMLYyQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinzqW-5xPcCjA8wHmJgwVGSMLYyQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.vvle54y5im6vpa@shwetank-dixits-macbook.local>

On Mon, 16 May 2011 13:48:19 +0200, Saurabh Jain <saurabh at skjworld.com>  
wrote:

> Also I would like to start HTML 5 user groups in India and specially in  
> and around Delhi area. Is there any official WHATWG or W3C user group  
> list or support program for user groups.
There are quite a few of us in India on html5-in at googlegroups.com . Feel  
free to set up any other if you like. I'd be happy to help out if you want.

-- 
Shwetank Dixit
Web Evangelist,
Site Compatibility / Developer Relations / Consumer Products Group
Member - W3C Mobile Web for Social Development (MW4D) Group
Member - Web Standards Project (WaSP) - International Liaison Group
Opera Software - www.opera.com

Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

From jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi  Mon May 16 19:38:41 2011
From: jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi (Jukka K. Korpela)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 05:38:41 +0300
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinTHKsk=AeXBAg7Thx1dmeRifn-GQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>	<BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>	<BANLkTikvrsoyJAndeBAqr8ZumfMPMani5g@mail.gmail.com>	<4DD0C543.2060000@kolumbus.fi>
	<BANLkTinTHKsk=AeXBAg7Thx1dmeRifn-GQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DD1DFB1.60005@kolumbus.fi>

17.5.2011 0:08, Micky Hulse wrote:

>> So it would be safer to write, say,
>> <hgroup>
>>   <h1>Article title<br>
>>   <small>Subhead</small>
>>   </h1>
>>   <time>...</time>
>> </hgroup>
>
> Ooooh, I like that! Seems like a good spot to use<small>.
>
> I am also happy to see that you included<time>  in the<hgroup>. I was
> under the assumption that<hgroup>  could only contain H* tags. I am
> glad to see that other tags can be put in there too.

Oops, sorry; they can't.
I confused <hgroup> (which is _heading_ group and therefore accepts only 
<h*> elements as children) with <header> (which is generic _header_ and 
accepts "flow" content, i.e. pretty much anything).

So you could use <header> markup here. Inside it, you could use <hgroup> 
that contains just the <h1> or, if you move the Subhead out of it into a 
<h2>, both <h1> and <h2>. But to include <time> inside <hgroup>, you 
would indeed need to wrap it inside <h3> for example.

> Just out of curiosity, what are you thoughts about using<hgroup>  when
> there is only one<H*>  tag?

Well, the definition says that <hgroup> contains one or more h1, h2, h3, 
h4, h5, and/or h6. But as such, "one or more" just means that it must 
not be empty, as it is common in syntactic definitions to use "one or 
more" for that. It implies that a single h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, or h6 is 
_allowed_. But it's not necessarily useful, and it's actually difficult 
to see why you would want to wrap a single heading into a heading group. 
The prose at 4.4.7 says that hgroup "is used to group a set of h1?h6 
elements when the heading has multiple levels, such as subheadings, 
alternative titles, or taglines."

But if you have sections with <hgroup> elements and some sections with 
just simple headings, you could wrap even then simple headings inside 
<hgroup>. You might do this for uniformity, or for the more practical 
reason of creating some style for <hgroup> (say, a particular 
background, or a border around) and have it applied to the lone headings 
as well. Or if you do some scripting that processes headings of 
sections, you could then make it simpler by just picking up a section's 
<hgroup>.

-- 
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Tue May 17 20:41:38 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:41:38 -0700
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <4DD1DFB1.60005@kolumbus.fi>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikvrsoyJAndeBAqr8ZumfMPMani5g@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DD0C543.2060000@kolumbus.fi>
	<BANLkTinTHKsk=AeXBAg7Thx1dmeRifn-GQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DD1DFB1.60005@kolumbus.fi>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=x=kHasoSvjKEWV4gMn8zmPOvBMA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Jukka/everyone! I really appreciate all of the pro help and advice.

You folks rock!

Have a great week.

Cheers,
Micky

From invite at eventbrite.com  Mon May 30 09:22:57 2011
From: invite at eventbrite.com (OpenClass)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 11:22:57 -0500
Subject: [html5] OpenClass invites you to Blackberry Developer Group India
	Meetup (Jun 11, 2011)
Message-ID: <1306772577.143749@eventbrite.com>

Blackberry Developer Group India in association with OpenClass is hosting its first meetup on 11th June 2011. The meetup aims to bring closer all the people who contribute in developing software for Blackberry devices whether directly or...
          Read More
          
          Share this event on Facebook 
        and Twitter
        We hope you can make it!Cheers,OpenClass

------------------------------ 
Event Summary:
------------------------------

Event: Blackberry Developer Group India Meetup
Date: Saturday, June 11, 2011 from 2:45 PM - 6:00 PM (GMT+0530)
Location: <b>OpenClass Meetup Point</b><br />406, Surya Kiran Building, Kasturba Gandhi Marg, Connaught Place <br />New Delhi 110001<br />India<br />

------------------------------ 
Event Details:
------------------------------

<p style="color: #000000;"><font face="'trebuchet ms', geneva" size="3" color="#333333"><strong>Blackberry Developer Group India</strong> in association with <strong>OpenClass</strong> is hosting its first meetup on 11th June 2011. The meetup aims to bring closer all the people who contribute in developing software for Blackberry devices whether directly or indirectly.<br /><br /><strong>Schedule :</strong></font></p>
<p><font face="'trebuchet ms', geneva" size="3"><strong><br />2:45pm : Registrations Open<br /></strong><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><br />3:00pm :?<font color="#3366ff">'<em>Introducing Blackberry Developer Group India'</em></font> by Mr. Saurabh Jain, Founder, Blackberry Developer Group India and author of India's first book on Java ME (J2ME)<br /><br />3:15pm : <em><font color="#3366ff">'Blackberry Ecosystem : Challenges and Opportunities'</font></em> by Mr. Prashant Singh, Evangelist, Spice Digital (Spice has hit the 10 million downloads mark for its apps on Blackberry App Store). Mr. Prashant is also the co-founder of Mobile Monday Delhi<br /><br />4:15pm : <em><font color="#3366ff">Q & A</font></em> between Mr. Prashant Singh and Attendees<br /><br />5:00pm : <font color="#3366ff"><em>Informal Networking Session</em></font></strong><br /><br /><br />If any of you want to share your knowledge of the Blackberry developer platform and would thus like to be a speaker do let us know on the?<font color="#333333"><a href="mailto:bbdevindia at groups.facebook.com">bbdevindia at groups.facebook.com</a></font><br /><br /><strong>Charges :?</strong><br />FREE for speakers<br />Rs 150 per person for listeners (To cover expenses)</span></font></p>
<p><font face="'trebuchet ms', geneva" size="3"><font><span class="text_exposed_show">Join us on Facebook at?</span></font><a href="http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_206480979390856">http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_206480979390856</a>?and?<a href="http://www.facebook.com/BBDevIndia">http://www.facebook.com/BBDevIndia</a>.</font></p>

------------------------------ 
Register Online:
------------------------------

More information and online registration are available here:
http://bbdevindia.eventbrite.com/?ref=enivtefor&invite=OTg4MzY5L2hlbHBAbGlzdHMud2hhdHdnLm9yZy8w%0A

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From sydjunaidshah at yahoo.com  Tue May 31 15:09:45 2011
From: sydjunaidshah at yahoo.com (Junaid Shah)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 15:09:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [html5] 3D Virtualization Project HELP REQUIRED
Message-ID: <139510.49271.qm@web110115.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi , I'm MUHAMMAD Junaid

1>   I want to develop a professional  3d website as  my BS-Software final year 
project for A SMALL STORE or  SHOP(Up till now).In which all the actions are 
performed as a real world, all the  webpages are similar to the shop 
infrastructure where user/Customer go to shelf s by moving freely in the shop 
and chose the items by analyzing/INTERACTING  items ALL IS DONE IN A 3D 
realization of shop by the costumer
 ALSO   PLEASE GIVE Suggestion IF ANY regarding THE 3d WEB DEVELOPMENT

2>  I'm a very beginner to the 3d and know some web development ..please help me 
in choosing WHAT TOOLS I needed to do this and How Would I start and

3>  I am a new guy please help me to chose the Right approach    WebGL or  O3D 
(how these technologies will help me AND WHAT THEY ARE ) ? please give some 
basics so  that I START

4> Also I'm very much confused about difference b/w (professional)3d website and 
flash websites

BEST REGARDS 
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From jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi  Sun May  1 02:58:13 2011
From: jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi (Jukka K. Korpela)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 12:58:13 +0300
Subject: [html5] <nav> for external links?
References: <BANLkTimkbp7HNPKXNhQvParuxNxH+ixxcw@mail.gmail.com><A3C3FD5BF3054644BB71DB95A0D8E5E4@JukanPC><BANLkTi=nuHzLTaPX0GXvi6SLpRx6fCP9Vg@mail.gmail.com><93BE02A28EE040A78F71C08DD330C974@JukanPC>
	<BANLkTimJDjgzo_zWo9rke_y-Ey5c22nGsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C68D189E23A745789DC289E247034277@Vodka6000>

Bjartur Thorlacius wrote:

>> By definition, the <body> element is the entire document to be
>> presented to the user, including any navigation, top banner, footer,
>> and aside stuff. It's all there is, except that the <head> element
>> contains _metadata_ that may affect _how_ the body is presented.
>>
> So you're arguing that <head> should contain only <script>s and
> <style>s?

I'm not arguing anything about that, simply citing the definitions. And I'm 
surely not arguing against the definitions; <title> is required and <meta> 
and <link> are allowed in <head>, but they do no constitute part of the 
visible document, by definition.

> Information in <body> is highly context sensitive, but
> information in <head> may be rendered before the <body>, after or
> injected into it.

Browsers are not expected to render the <head> part, and they don't. On some 
browsers this may be changed using CSS, but that is rather anomalous and 
does not make sense except in special situations.

> I find
> <head>
> <link rel="related" type="image/jpeg" href=./complementary-image>
> </head>
> more logical than
> <body>
> <aside>
>  <img src="./complementary-image" type="image/jpeg" alt="">
> </aside>
> </body>

There is no rel="related" defined even as proposed at
http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
How logical can an element be when you apparently rely on the meaning of 
some attribute value with no defined meaning? Would it mean 'is related to'? 
Rather pointless, as linked resources are always supposed to be related - 
somehow.

If the image is supposed to be rendered as part of the document, it belongs 
to <body>, and its placement in the markup is supposed to specify the 
default placement.

Yucca

From svartman95 at gmail.com  Sun May  1 08:52:47 2011
From: svartman95 at gmail.com (Bjartur Thorlacius)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 15:52:47 +0000
Subject: [html5] <nav> for external links?
In-Reply-To: <51B086C2B8DE4505AEC2F6AFF944B40D@B1>
References: <BANLkTimkbp7HNPKXNhQvParuxNxH+ixxcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<A3C3FD5BF3054644BB71DB95A0D8E5E4@JukanPC>
	<BANLkTi=nuHzLTaPX0GXvi6SLpRx6fCP9Vg@mail.gmail.com>
	<93BE02A28EE040A78F71C08DD330C974@JukanPC>
	<BANLkTimJDjgzo_zWo9rke_y-Ey5c22nGsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<5F46FC1A993049649242D6A4B8791AA9@B1>
	<BANLkTimnsaB6a4KSfrr_UuOpJcFq9Gp_AQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<51B086C2B8DE4505AEC2F6AFF944B40D@B1>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinTa9z4WON943G4janA4qrVYgd53g@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/30/11, Jacob Kristensen <admin at blueboden.com> wrote:
>> Navigation links link to resources related to the whole page, right?
> Not necessarily. Especially not in web pages, or applications.
>
> The individual page may have multiple sections, which are independent of
> each other. In which case you likely want to include such potential "see
> also" links, in a footer placed as a child to the relevant section.
>
>> What's your definition of a navigation link.
> Navigation links that i would markup using nav, would basically be anything
> but in-content links.
> If the links is a part of the content on the page, such as the "latest news"
> links on a front page of a news site, then i would limit the use of nav to
> site-section links. I.e. Sports, movies, tv, etc.
>
IMO everything only main content should go in body.

Quoting the W3C Editor's Draft:
| The body element represents the main content of the document.

Yet, a number of children (including nav, aside and figure) don't seem
to form a part of the main content.

> Another place where i wouldn't use nav, is for search results. I.e.
> Google/yahoo results page. And in the case of blogs, for the results on a
> "by tag" page.
>
>> You could easily apply the above to more descendants of <head>. I'm
>> not sure how to render empty elements such as <link> and <meta>,
>> though.
> Don't hold me to it, but I'm fairly sure that this is in fact an un-intended
> "feature" thing, which is allowed by browsers that support custom elements.
>
> Normally unknown elements gets treated as empty span, if I'm not mistaken.
> What you are experiencing with the styling of title, is likely just an
> unintended side-effect of the possibility to declare your own elements using
> the display property.
>

> There are several reasons why you wouldn't style the head. For one, what
> purpose should it serve? The support of link for anything but StyleSheets,
> is rather limited. And i already explained why you wouldn't want to include
> links in the head section. I also personally think its a waste of time to
> discuss, because i know the thinking which lies behind (seen it elsewhere),
> but this will have to do for now.
>
Why would you put links that aren't main content in an element that
represents the main content of the document?

>> Navigation links most likely shouldn't be placed "on a page", but
>> provided out-of-band, or somehow differently from the main content of
>> the page. An interactive widescreen rendering might render links to
>> the right of the main content, with a separate scrolling mechanism (if
>> needed). A small-screen (interactive, visual) rendering might provide
>> the links only upon explicit request. The latter would also be
>> appropriate for people like me who can't concentrate when their screen
>> is full of information they don't need (ATM).
>
> This is a very bad idea, since it would servilely limit the customization
> that web designers and developers have come to love in recent years. There
> would be a lot of angry designers, asking why you stole their navigation
> column.
>
I think it's more important to keep users happy than letting designers
control every pixel on a user's screen. Users need customizability
more than designers.

How would a designer even know whether I render navigation links in a
column or a row?

> Another problem you would have to deal with, is the multitude of different
> layout techniques in use. Removing a navigation column from a website, would
> in many cases tilt the rendering, and might even make the site unusable in
> rare cases.
>
Existing pages will keep using <ul>. UAs won't even recognize the
lists as navigational.

> It may have its use for static documents however. Where the rendering is
> less important to the designer.
>
Authors' main concern is content. The user is most interested in the
content. Design is a question of accessibility, aesthetics and
branding, i.e. complementary to the content.

From svartman95 at gmail.com  Sun May  1 09:00:19 2011
From: svartman95 at gmail.com (Bjartur Thorlacius)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 16:00:19 +0000
Subject: [html5] <nav> for external links?
In-Reply-To: <C68D189E23A745789DC289E247034277@Vodka6000>
References: <BANLkTimkbp7HNPKXNhQvParuxNxH+ixxcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<A3C3FD5BF3054644BB71DB95A0D8E5E4@JukanPC>
	<BANLkTi=nuHzLTaPX0GXvi6SLpRx6fCP9Vg@mail.gmail.com>
	<93BE02A28EE040A78F71C08DD330C974@JukanPC>
	<BANLkTimJDjgzo_zWo9rke_y-Ey5c22nGsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<C68D189E23A745789DC289E247034277@Vodka6000>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinz1ZzedaV=0ZvbWh3ROUHD1_GFjA@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/1/11, Jukka K. Korpela <jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi> wrote:
> Bjartur Thorlacius wrote:
>
>>> By definition, the <body> element is the entire document to be
>>> presented to the user, including any navigation, top banner, footer,
>>> and aside stuff. It's all there is, except that the <head> element
>>> contains _metadata_ that may affect _how_ the body is presented.
>>>
>> So you're arguing that <head> should contain only <script>s and
>> <style>s?
>
> I'm not arguing anything about that, simply citing the definitions. And I'm
> surely not arguing against the definitions; <title> is required and <meta>
> and <link> are allowed in <head>, but they do no constitute part of the
> visible document, by definition.
>
I can't speak for your UA's rendering, but on all mainstream
configurations the title is drawn on the screen, usually on the
topmost column.

Head is defined to contain metadata for the document. I consider
navigation links to be metadata. Sadly, metadata is ambiguous enough
for that to be debatable.

I don't think there's any definition for 'the visible document,' but
they're surely no more parts of the main content than navigation
links.

>> Information in <body> is highly context sensitive, but
>> information in <head> may be rendered before the <body>, after or
>> injected into it.
>
> Browsers are not expected to render the <head> part, and they don't. On some
> browsers this may be changed using CSS, but that is rather anomalous and
> does not make sense except in special situations.
>
Rendering (standard) next and prev links in the footer of a page makes
sense to me, and sequences of documents are quite common (and thus no
'special situation').

>> I find
>> <head>
>> <link rel="related" type="image/jpeg" href=./complementary-image>
>> </head>
>> more logical than
>> <body>
>> <aside>
>>  <img src="./complementary-image" type="image/jpeg" alt="">
>> </aside>
>> </body>
>
> There is no rel="related" defined even as proposed at
> http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
> How logical can an element be when you apparently rely on the meaning of
> some attribute value with no defined meaning? Would it mean 'is related to'?
> Rather pointless, as linked resources are always supposed to be related -
> somehow.
>
Right, I just used related as I didn't find any standard rel value for
this relationship. The rel attribute is #IMPLIED in HTML 4.01, but
required by the W3C HTML5 Working Draft.

> If the image is supposed to be rendered as part of the document, it belongs
> to <body>, and its placement in the markup is supposed to specify the
> default placement.
>
What about images for which there is no "default placement"? News
articles often link to videos, pictures and illustrations that readers
may be interested in. They are related to the current page, but don't
form a part of it. Given enough screen estate, an UA may decide to
embed them into the final rendering - but whether to and where is up
to the UA. HTML5 suggests marking these up with a figure inside the
body, even though they shouldn't necessarily be rendered adjacent to
the surrounding nodes.

From svartman95 at gmail.com  Sun May  1 09:15:43 2011
From: svartman95 at gmail.com (Bjartur Thorlacius)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 16:15:43 +0000
Subject: [html5] <nav> for external links?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimkbp7HNPKXNhQvParuxNxH+ixxcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimkbp7HNPKXNhQvParuxNxH+ixxcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTini9_wjVm=PyV5_ZcyzTA1xLOp1Rg@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/27/11, Micky Hulse <mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am starting to learn my way around the new HTML5 tags and I had some
> questions about the <nav> tag.
>
> Based on what I have been reading around the net, the <nav> should
> only be used for internal site linking. Is this true?
>
> My situation:
>
> I am building a template for a 3rd-party site which takes on our
> site's branding... Unfortunately, the links have to be absolute in
> order for users to get back to our main site.
>
> Due to the external linking, would <nav> be a no-no?
>
Whether you use absolute or relative links is irrelevant. The 3rd
party pages form a part of your collection of pages, even though
they're hosted by AP and are identified with another domain.

> If it is not recommended to use <nav> in this situation, should I just
> use a normal div container?
>
> This is for site-wide navigation, for the 3rd-party, so I do plan on
> putting it inside of a <header> element... Which appears to not be a
> problem. :)
>
A collection of site-wide navigation links seems like plausible
contents of a nav. A collection of links to other pages in a
collection should be contained in nav.

P.S. Sorry for going so far off topic

From jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi  Sun May  1 11:30:27 2011
From: jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi (Jukka K. Korpela)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:30:27 +0300
Subject: [html5] <nav> for external links?
References: <BANLkTimkbp7HNPKXNhQvParuxNxH+ixxcw@mail.gmail.com><A3C3FD5BF3054644BB71DB95A0D8E5E4@JukanPC><BANLkTi=nuHzLTaPX0GXvi6SLpRx6fCP9Vg@mail.gmail.com><93BE02A28EE040A78F71C08DD330C974@JukanPC><BANLkTimJDjgzo_zWo9rke_y-Ey5c22nGsQ@mail.gmail.com><C68D189E23A745789DC289E247034277@Vodka6000>
	<BANLkTinz1ZzedaV=0ZvbWh3ROUHD1_GFjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F3C686B395264332A622654D7E2B81BD@Vodka6000>

Bjartur Thorlacius wrote:

> I can't speak for your UA's rendering, but on all mainstream
> configurations the title is drawn on the screen, usually on the
> topmost column.

Which means that it appears outside the document.

> Rendering (standard) next and prev links in the footer of a page makes
> sense to me, and sequences of documents are quite common (and thus no
> 'special situation').

Such links are created usign <a href>, just because <link> is not supposed 
to be visible. Making elements of <head> visible would be very special, 
because then you would make things strongly dependent on CSS and 
specifically CSS support for things that aren't widely supported. It would 
be rather pointless to put things into invisible elements, instead of 
available visible elements, then try to turn them to visible.

> The rel attribute is #IMPLIED in HTML 4.01, but
> required by the W3C HTML5 Working Draft.

It certainly isn't, and it would be absurd to make it required, for several 
reasons (including the fact that there are no suitable values defined for 
the most common uses of links).

Yucca

From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Sun May  1 13:42:15 2011
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (webmaster)
Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 13:42:15 -0700
Subject: [html5] url scheme (off-topic)
Message-ID: <4DBDC5A7.6010005@tsmchughs.com>

I want some advice on a url scheme for a photography site I'm 
redesigning. This list is for html. Afaict, url issues are off-topic.
Does anyone know of a list for more general website design issues?

I've tried google searches, e.g., "mailing list url design", but that 
seems to bring info on mailing list software and how to create urls for 
mailing list archives. Searching for "url design" brings up useful 
articles, but no place to ask for advice.

-- 
BT

From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Sun May  1 14:00:24 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:00:24 -0700
Subject: [html5] url scheme (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <4DBDC5A7.6010005@tsmchughs.com>
References: <4DBDC5A7.6010005@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikeTr+bm_Mso2ohz-BXWGx-ezjfDg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 1:42 PM, webmaster <webmaster at tsmchughs.com> wrote:
> I want some advice on a url scheme for a photography site I'm redesigning.
> This list is for html. Afaict, url issues are off-topic.
> Does anyone know of a list for more general website design issues?

My favorite web design list:

http://www.webdesign-l.com/

Not super active, but lots of folks there waiting to answer questions.

You might also check out:

http://lists.evolt.org

This one is good for web "standards":

http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/

Alternatively, Sitepoint forums are good also:

http://sitepoint.com/forums

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
Micky

From tonyc at boldfish.co.uk  Sun May  1 14:03:03 2011
From: tonyc at boldfish.co.uk (Tony Crockford)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 22:03:03 +0100
Subject: [html5] url scheme (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <4DBDC5A7.6010005@tsmchughs.com>
References: <4DBDC5A7.6010005@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <0ECB2979-2DF0-4BB9-95B6-E06431A9D9BB@boldfish.co.uk>

On 1 May 2011, at 21:42, webmaster wrote:
> Does anyone know of a list for more general website design issues?

http://lists.workalone.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/wauk
Is the list I run - Mostly UK centric Freelancers and there are some real experts there.

Come join us.

-- 
Tony Crockford
tonyc at boldfish.co.uk

From absolutehalo at gmail.com  Mon May  2 08:28:24 2011
From: absolutehalo at gmail.com (Brandon Hale)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:28:24 -0500
Subject: [html5] <nav> for external links?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimUSkoKxAX1N0XUKZ3UZQwRDB2kog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimkbp7HNPKXNhQvParuxNxH+ixxcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<A3C3FD5BF3054644BB71DB95A0D8E5E4@JukanPC>
	<BANLkTi=nuHzLTaPX0GXvi6SLpRx6fCP9Vg@mail.gmail.com>
	<93BE02A28EE040A78F71C08DD330C974@JukanPC>
	<BANLkTimJDjgzo_zWo9rke_y-Ey5c22nGsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<5F46FC1A993049649242D6A4B8791AA9@B1>
	<BANLkTik0ikuG9oBiEsfaMhjeAa3iSvEf8w@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimUSkoKxAX1N0XUKZ3UZQwRDB2kog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimhGOqTLdbQqKXhoPdtskV4O+WjmA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Yes, if HTML were to be designed today this would probably be quite
> different. I don't think, however, that navigational links should be
> categorized with the main content of the page, nor necessarily
> presented directly to the user.
>

I'm having a hard time with the ideal that navigational links are not based
upon the content of the page. If, for example, the basic links of a brochure
site are "Home", "About", and "Contact" and I am currently on the "About"
page, at what point is the link not associated to the content?

> Any changes would have to be backwards compatible. Currently, you can
> simply omit the <head> opening and closing tags (in full conformance
> with HTML 4.01). You'll have a hard time renaming existing elements,
> in special considering that modern browsers might implicitly open
> <body> upon encountering the unimplemented element (potentially
> breaking assumptions).
>

The backwards compatibility issue is valid and it nullifies much of my
observation. Point taken.

> Well, you'll have to read threads of the WHATWG ML archives. There
> have been proposals for this.
>

Understood. I'll dig into those archives.

> AIUI, the doctype is a node in the DOM:
> Quoting http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Core/core.html#ID-1841493061
> > DOCUMENT_TYPE_NODE:   The node is a DocumentType.
>
> What exactly do you mean by "not direct html content?"
>

I placed "outside" in quotes hoping that statement wouldn't be taken
literally. I understand that <!DOCTYPE> is a DOM node. The observation was
more focused on the nodes behavior in the document. It works "behind the
scenes" and is a processing instruction not a "physical" HTML tag rendered
in the document (i.e. <head>, <body>, <nav>, <div>).

"Direct html content" was probably not the best set of terms to use. This
goes back to my prior observation. I see a real separation between what is
happening in <head> and what is happening in <body>. <head> and it's
children are not generally a part of the visible document. <body>, on the
other hand, deals with the content of the page, directly rendered by the
browser. <a>Home</a> is "direct", while <link rel="stylesheet" href="url" />
requires the browser to look elsewhere "indirectly" before it can bring in
what is being requested.

At any rate, I'm not sure I see a reasonable argument for altering <link />
to work like <a> when <a> creates the proper protocol for "linking" pages
together. To be honest, it feels like an over complication of the language
to suggest their is some issue in deciding whether one should define
navigation in <head> or <body> using <link> or <a>. I feel that the real
issue is wether or not the proper semantic names are being used at the top
level (i.e. <head> and <body>). Since backwards compatibility is as big of a
concern as it is I don't think there is a debate to be had about wether one
should create navigation in <head> or <body>.

Per the HTML 4 Specification:

"The HEAD <http://www.w3.org/TR/html40/struct/global.html#edef-HEAD> element
contains information about the current document, such as its title, keywords
that may be useful to search engines, and other data that is not considered
document content. User agents do not generally render elements that appear
in the HEAD <http://www.w3.org/TR/html40/struct/global.html#edef-HEAD> as
content. They may, however, make information in the
HEAD<http://www.w3.org/TR/html40/struct/global.html#edef-HEAD>
available
to users through other mechanisms."

"Data that is not considered document content" is the key phrase there, in
my opinion. From an information architecture standpoint, I don't see a
reasonable argument for navigation links not being document content.

I'll echo Mr. Hulse here and thank each of you for the valuable insight,
opinions, and observations made in this list. I am a better developer for
having been able to learn from each of you. Thank you all very much.
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From svartman95 at gmail.com  Mon May  2 14:04:43 2011
From: svartman95 at gmail.com (Bjartur Thorlacius)
Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:04:43 +0000
Subject: [html5] <nav> for external links?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimhGOqTLdbQqKXhoPdtskV4O+WjmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimkbp7HNPKXNhQvParuxNxH+ixxcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<A3C3FD5BF3054644BB71DB95A0D8E5E4@JukanPC>
	<BANLkTi=nuHzLTaPX0GXvi6SLpRx6fCP9Vg@mail.gmail.com>
	<93BE02A28EE040A78F71C08DD330C974@JukanPC>
	<BANLkTimJDjgzo_zWo9rke_y-Ey5c22nGsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<5F46FC1A993049649242D6A4B8791AA9@B1>
	<BANLkTik0ikuG9oBiEsfaMhjeAa3iSvEf8w@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimUSkoKxAX1N0XUKZ3UZQwRDB2kog@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimhGOqTLdbQqKXhoPdtskV4O+WjmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinVx84GeZLb4D5tc91ftg14XCn3mw@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/2/11, Brandon Hale <absolutehalo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, if HTML were to be designed today this would probably be quite
>> different. I don't think, however, that navigational links should be
>> categorized with the main content of the page, nor necessarily
>> presented directly to the user.
>>
>
> I'm having a hard time with the ideal that navigational links are not based
> upon the content of the page. If, for example, the basic links of a brochure
> site are "Home", "About", and "Contact" and I am currently on the "About"
> page, at what point is the link not associated to the content?
>
I'm sorry, I don't understand you (I'm Icelandic and thus don't
read/write English natively, etc). The navigation links and the main
content would be bundled in the same document (although that doesn't
seem like a feature to me as the links would be shared between the
three pages) and most likely rendered side by side. There's definately
an association. But navigation links and main content are not the
same, and shouldn't be treated as such.

>> Any changes would have to be backwards compatible. Currently, you can
>> simply omit the <head> opening and closing tags (in full conformance
>> with HTML 4.01). You'll have a hard time renaming existing elements,
>> in special considering that modern browsers might implicitly open
>> <body> upon encountering the unimplemented element (potentially
>> breaking assumptions).
>>
>
> The backwards compatibility issue is valid and it nullifies much of my
> observation. Point taken.
>
Not opening head and body explicitly is a personal preference, of course.

>> Well, you'll have to read threads of the WHATWG ML archives. There
>> have been proposals for this.
>>
>
> Understood. I'll dig into those archives.
>
Good luck!

>> AIUI, the doctype is a node in the DOM:
>> Quoting http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Core/core.html#ID-1841493061
>> > DOCUMENT_TYPE_NODE:   The node is a DocumentType.
>>
>> What exactly do you mean by "not direct html content?"
>>
>
> I placed "outside" in quotes hoping that statement wouldn't be taken
> literally. I understand that <!DOCTYPE> is a DOM node. The observation was
> more focused on the nodes behavior in the document. It works "behind the
> scenes" and is a processing instruction not a "physical" HTML tag rendered
> in the document (i.e. <head>, <body>, <nav>, <div>).
>
Ah, I understand you. I think the <!> tags are defined by SGML (or
were, as HTML5 isn't a SGML language anymore), but processing
instructions can truly be used for information as to how the document
should be processed and presented, i.e. that information that's
neither main content nor tangential content/head-like metadata, as you
recognize from XML:
<?xml-stylesheet href="/styles/dark"?>

A processing instruction might in fact be even "saner" (to keep my odd
terminology) for @rel=next links if you think of them as effectively
merging the linked documents.

> "Direct html content" was probably not the best set of terms to use. This
> goes back to my prior observation. I see a real separation between what is
> happening in <head> and what is happening in <body>. <head> and it's
> children are not generally a part of the visible document. <body>, on the
> other hand, deals with the content of the page, directly rendered by the
> browser. <a>Home</a> is "direct", while <link rel="stylesheet" href="url" />
> requires the browser to look elsewhere "indirectly" before it can bring in
> what is being requested.
>
The difference you observe seems to be the difference between
hyperlink and external resources (as defined by the HTML5 drafts)
rather than a inherent property of <link> and <a>. <Link rel=next> for
example causes the creation of a hyperlink, for example, whereas <link
rel=stylesheet> causes an external resource.

> At any rate, I'm not sure I see a reasonable argument for altering <link />
> to work like <a> when <a> creates the proper protocol for "linking" pages
> together. To be honest, it feels like an over complication of the language
> to suggest their is some issue in deciding whether one should define
> navigation in <head> or <body> using <link> or <a>. I feel that the real
> issue is wether or not the proper semantic names are being used at the top
> level (i.e. <head> and <body>). Since backwards compatibility is as big of a
> concern as it is I don't think there is a debate to be had about wether one
> should create navigation in <head> or <body>.
>
I do now (mostly) agree. As navigation links can evidently apply only
to a single section of a document, using a at rel={next,prev} as a (last)
child of the element it applies to (and body if it applies to the
whole document). I don't understand how directional navigation links
(next/prev) that apply to a section only should be rendered, so I'll
render them the same way as any other hyperlink until browser devs
come up with a better rendering. Concatenation is the obvious choice
for the others.

As for navigation links of the type you're talking about: IMO they
should be put in a seperate file (either text/uri-list or text/html)
referenced from each document. These links would then be put at the
end of aural/speech renderings, in a seperate box/frame/window/screen
on screen and tty, available upon request on handheld and tv and
omitted in projection and print (and probably in embossed renderings).
An experienced braille user would come up with suitable rendering for
that CSS media type. Then if a "Staff" page is added to the site, you
don't need to redownload anything but the navigation links. These
things are currently usually cached by a reverse proxy on behalf of
the server.

This would of course not be worth it for a brochure site (where it
would only serve to increase HTTP overhead), but might make sense on a
news site, with large articles and long, categorized and fast-changing
navigation links. Or am I overgeneralizing the concept of navigation
links, and each document should contain navigation links to "About,"
"Domestic news," "Scandinavian news" and "Rest of the world" (where
the latter two would be lists of links, and "Domestic news" would be
the empty document)? Visual renderings where paper/screen estate is
cheap enough could of course include related documents in the
rendering of one of them. The important thing to me is that the markup
allows for such unusual renderings the author may or may not have
thought of.

> Per the HTML 4 Specification:
>
> "The HEAD <http://www.w3.org/TR/html40/struct/global.html#edef-HEAD> element
> contains information about the current document, such as its title, keywords
> that may be useful to search engines, and other data that is not considered
> document content. User agents do not generally render elements that appear
> in the HEAD <http://www.w3.org/TR/html40/struct/global.html#edef-HEAD> as
> content. They may, however, make information in the
> HEAD<http://www.w3.org/TR/html40/struct/global.html#edef-HEAD>
> available
> to users through other mechanisms."
>
> "Data that is not considered document content" is the key phrase there, in
> my opinion. From an information architecture standpoint, I don't see a
> reasonable argument for navigation links not being document content.
>
Well, I consider navigation links the same way as titles and
descriptions: they can come in handy, but aren't main-content.
Take a YouTube video description page (e.g.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U0UaRYXwBQ&feature=topvideos_music).
The HTML document contains comments, a title, a description, a list of
related videos, a form and links to misc. YouTube sites (home, about,
copyright, TOS, etc). All metadata about the video, or about YouTube.
The data about the video is the main content of the document, but the
data about YouTube is not, and should thus be in head - to make it
clear which resources are actually related to the video, and which
ones are related to YouTube only. Think <link rel=license>.

> I'll echo Mr. Hulse here and thank each of you for the valuable insight,
> opinions, and observations made in this list. I am a better developer for
> having been able to learn from each of you. Thank you all very much.
>
Echo and out, thank you all for the remarks and for setting me straight.

From ian at hixie.ch  Wed May 11 20:00:00 2011
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 03:00:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] empty cells
In-Reply-To: <4D8678FB.2090107@tsmchughs.com>
References: <4D8678FB.2090107@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1105120159240.19153@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Sun, 20 Mar 2011, webmaster wrote:
>
> I'm seeing what I think is a bug in Safari with regard to empty cells in 
> a table. I have a restaurant dinner menu marked up as a table:
> 
> http://www.tenmercer.com/menu/dinner
> 
> The first <tr> of each <tbody> element contains only a <th> element 
> (thanks to hixie for the scope="rowgroup" suggestion a couple of weeks 
> ago). Each subsequent <tr> has 3 cells: a <th> and two <td>s. My style 
> sheet has a rule to place a border-bottom on tbody tr:first-child. In 
> Firefox, the border extends across the table, but not in Safari.

Yeah, that seems like a bug in the CSS border rendering for tables. I 
recommend filing a bug at http://bugs.webkit.org/. Feel free to cc me 
(ian at hixie.ch is my account).

> I tried to find something in the html5 spec

It's a CSS bug, not an HTML bug.

> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#table-model
> 
> Is there something more recent regarding how browsers should calculate 
> the number of cells in a table?

The above spec, or this version of it (it's basically the same document):

http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/tabular-data.html#table-model

...describes the semantics of the table (including what cells it has), but 
as far as rendering the borders go, CSS is what matters, specifically in 
this case the collapsed border model:

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#collapsing-borders

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Sun May 15 12:30:42 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 12:30:42 -0700
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
Message-ID: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Take this code for example:

https://gist.github.com/973444

Do you see anything out of the ordinary? I am trying to build an index
page for blog entries.

Questions:

1. What do you think about the usage of the H1? In this case, is it a
problem to have multiple per page?

2. Can I use <hgroup> within an <a> tag?

3. Thoughts on wrapping time with an H3? The only reason I am using H3
is so I can style the <time> tag using CSS2.1 and have that styling
work in older browsers (does that make sense?)

Thanks so much in advance for the help! I really appreciate it. :)

Cheers,
Micky

From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Sun May 15 12:32:24 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 12:32:24 -0700
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=s0bf9aK7qnj1LYm4FtpsbLtUYZw@mail.gmail.com>

> 3. Thoughts on wrapping time with an H3? The only reason I am using H3
> is so I can style the <time> tag using CSS2.1 and have that styling
> work in older browsers (does that make sense?)

I suppose I could ditch the <h3> and do this instead:

<time class="time" pubdate="pubdate" datetime="...">March 22</time>

I just hate having to add a redundant class to HTML5 tags in order to
get my hooks into it for styling in older browsers. :D

For some reason, this just feels cleaner:

<h3><time pubdate="pubdate" datetime="...">March 22</time></h3>

Thoughts?

Thanks!!!!
Micky

From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Sun May 15 15:29:44 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 15:29:44 -0700
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Micky Hulse
<mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> 3. Thoughts on wrapping time with an H3? The only reason I am using H3
> is so I can style the <time> tag using CSS2.1 and have that styling
> work in older browsers (does that make sense?)

I think I am confusing the "styling" of HTML5 elements with the
styling of ARIA's roles.

The attribute selector does not work in IE6:

header[role="banner"] {
    your styles here
}

But, I guess that is not so bad depending on the situation.

Also, I found this info on HTMLDoctor:

"Also note the use of two <h1>?s within that piece of html, this is
perfectly valid in HTML 5 (and HTML 4) but will cause issues with
accessibility, so we advise caution if you have a large number of
articles on a page. We will cover this in more detail in another
post."

-- http://html5doctor.com/the-header-element/

I do plan on having multiple/many articles on a page, so I am guessing
that I should avoid multiple H1s.

Thanks for listening!

Cheers,
Micky

From ricardobeat at gmail.com  Sun May 15 16:21:11 2011
From: ricardobeat at gmail.com (Ricardo Tomasi)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 20:21:11 -0300
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>

Nothing wrong with wrapping time in <h3> if it's part of the heading, like a
subtitle. that's why we have hgroup. But It doesn't make much sense to have
an article element without any actual content, just a header. If it's a list
of articles, not the articles themselves, you should use an unordered list.
The article tag should be able to be extracted from the page and retain it's
meaning.

One thing is definitely wrong: you can't put block-level elements (h1, h2,
hgroup) inside an inline one - <a>.

You can style the new elements by their tags if you apply the html5
shiv.<http://code.google.com/p/html5shiv/> Here's
what I think this should look like: https://gist.github.com/973657

2011/5/15 Micky Hulse <mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com>

> On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Micky Hulse
> <mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 3. Thoughts on wrapping time with an H3? The only reason I am using H3
> > is so I can style the <time> tag using CSS2.1 and have that styling
> > work in older browsers (does that make sense?)
>
> I think I am confusing the "styling" of HTML5 elements with the
> styling of ARIA's roles.
>
> The attribute selector does not work in IE6:
>
> header[role="banner"] {
>    your styles here
> }
>
> But, I guess that is not so bad depending on the situation.
>
> Also, I found this info on HTMLDoctor:
>
> "Also note the use of two <h1>?s within that piece of html, this is
> perfectly valid in HTML 5 (and HTML 4) but will cause issues with
> accessibility, so we advise caution if you have a large number of
> articles on a page. We will cover this in more detail in another
> post."
>
> -- http://html5doctor.com/the-header-element/
>
> I do plan on having multiple/many articles on a page, so I am guessing
> that I should avoid multiple H1s.
>
> Thanks for listening!
>
> Cheers,
> Micky
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
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From admin at blueboden.com  Sun May 15 16:42:42 2011
From: admin at blueboden.com (Jacob Kristensen)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 01:42:42 +0200
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB0C0E604B4A4403915C038029A5D5FC@B1>

> I do plan on having multiple/many articles on a page, so I am guessing
> that I should avoid multiple H1s.

I'm not sure what UA's would be a problem, screen readers tend to allow 
users to jump between headings easily, ( i assume they mean screan-readers).
Visual UA's have no problems what so ever, since they just present stuff the 
way you tell them to.

A good reason not to listen to such a warning, is that its a minority in any 
case, and such should take extra care to do stuff right.
I don't like running a charity for every browser developer who creates a 
browser, variation, or new UA/device.

We had the same problem with older mobile phones freezing up when the site 
was "to large".. Not that people actually used them anyway, but still a good 
example.

A list of articles would only contain links, or a heading at most. Not 
snippets of the text.
he point where you start to display text-snippets, is where you want to use 
the article element, since such content can be considered independent 
sections, that can be syndicated, and still make sense.

Jacob Kristensen
http://blueboden.com/

From sarah.plowright at gmail.com  Sun May 15 16:43:30 2011
From: sarah.plowright at gmail.com (Sarah Forst)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 19:43:30 -0400
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BA76953-DD60-4B36-B508-778856CE7339@gmail.com>

Actually I believe in HTML 5 it's now perfectly fine to put block level elements inside an anchor tag.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2011, at 7:21 PM, Ricardo Tomasi <ricardobeat at gmail.com> wrote:

> Nothing wrong with wrapping time in <h3> if it's part of the heading, like a subtitle. that's why we have hgroup. But It doesn't make much sense to have an article element without any actual content, just a header. If it's a list of articles, not the articles themselves, you should use an unordered list. The article tag should be able to be extracted from the page and retain it's meaning.
> 
> One thing is definitely wrong: you can't put block-level elements (h1, h2, hgroup) inside an inline one - <a>.
> 
> You can style the new elements by their tags if you apply the html5 shiv. Here's what I think this should look like: https://gist.github.com/973657
> 
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From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Sun May 15 16:46:51 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 16:46:51 -0700
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikNtzXDK_ZnrJeL3MAXzPK0dfQrUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ricardo! Thanks so much for your help and example code, I really
appreciate it! :)

See my replies inline below.

On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Ricardo Tomasi <ricardobeat at gmail.com> wrote:
> Nothing wrong with wrapping time in <h3> if it's part of the heading, like a
> subtitle. that's why we have hgroup.?But It doesn't make much sense to have
> an article element without any actual content, just a header. If it's a list
> of articles, not the articles themselves, you should use an unordered list.
> The article tag should be able to be extracted from the page and retain it's
> meaning.

Ahhh, great point! I did not think of that.

In this case, I was not planning on having any of the article body on
the "index" page, so I really like your idea of using an unordered
list. :)

> One thing is definitely wrong: you can't put block-level elements (h1, h2,
> hgroup) inside an inline one - <a>.

Ahh, that makes sense! I thought I had read somewhere that links can
now wrap other block level elements. Thanks for clarifying this for
me. :)

> You can style the new elements by their tags if you apply the html5
> shiv.?Here's what I think this should look
> like:?https://gist.github.com/973657

Awesome!

Thanks so much for the help and code sample! I really  appreciate it. :)

Have a great day.

Cheers,
Micky

From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Sun May 15 17:26:13 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 17:26:13 -0700
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <4BA76953-DD60-4B36-B508-778856CE7339@gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BA76953-DD60-4B36-B508-778856CE7339@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikAPmvcW6X7uQ+W9yzB6Xq0m47fvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Sarah Forst <sarah.plowright at gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually I believe in HTML 5 it's now perfectly fine to put block level
> elements inside an anchor tag.

Ahh, well that sounds like good news to me! I need to do some Googling now. :)

Thanks for the reply Sarah, I appreciate the help!

Cheers,
Micky

From mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com  Sun May 15 17:54:07 2011
From: mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com (Micky Hulse)
Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 17:54:07 -0700
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikvrsoyJAndeBAqr8ZumfMPMani5g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ricardo!

On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Ricardo Tomasi <ricardobeat at gmail.com> wrote:
>?Here's what I think this should look
> like:?https://gist.github.com/973657

I just had a few questions about your revised template, I hope you don't mind.

If we were to consider this to be the primary logo for the
template/website, what are your thoughts about making this an <h6>? I
have always used <h6> for the site logo, for example:

<header>
<h6><a href="http://site.com">Site Name</a> Slogan</h6>
</header>

But maybe I can change my thinking about the logo's importance in an
HTML5 document?

I like your addition of the <h2>:

<h2>Articles</h2>

I am betting this makes the HTML5 outliner happy (I was getting an
"untitled" section with my template)...

My question: I don't really want to show a heading in that spot; would
there be anything wrong with me "visually" hiding this <h2> (i.e.
absolutely position it off of the page)?

Thanks! Have a great weekend.

Cheers,
Micky

From jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi  Sun May 15 23:16:08 2011
From: jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi (Jukka K. Korpela)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 09:16:08 +0300
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DD0C128.6010105@kolumbus.fi>

15.5.2011 22:30, Micky Hulse wrote:

> https://gist.github.com/973444
>
> Do you see anything out of the ordinary?

It lacks a !DOCTYPE and the <title> element. (It is apparently meant to 
be a template, so it should surely be a complete template.)

Many people recommend the use of start and end tags for <html>, <head>, 
and <body> elements. This is largely a matter of style. But I think 
there is almost always a reason to use the <html> tag, so that you can 
put a lang attribute there.

> I am trying to build an index
> page for blog entries.

It should have a main heading, apparently inside <header>. Almost all 
pages should have a main heading, just as almost every book should have 
a name.

> 1. What do you think about the usage of the H1? In this case, is it a
> problem to have multiple per page?

Using <h1> inside <article> effectively lowers its rank with respect to 
the page as a whole. Though such usage is well-defined and allowed in 
HTML5, its main purpose is to allow inclusing of articles into a 
document without changing their heading markup. This is fine and useful 
in the long run, but it's just pointlessly risky at present. Current 
browsers, assistive software etc. will blindly treat <h1> as rank 1 
heading, without paying attention to its appearing inside <article>. You 
might make them _appear_ as lower-rank headings, if you use carefully 
crafted CSS (and your stylesheet actually gets applied), but it's just 
an indirect way of partially achieving something that is best achieved 
directly.

So in practice, the main heading of an article is best written as <h2>. 
The subheadings could be written as <h3> and <h4> when they are all 
wrapped inside <hgroup>, by the current HTML5, but the <hgroup> is under 
suspicision, so to say, and no particular browser support can be 
expected at present, if ever.

So it would be safer to write, say,
<hgroup>
   <h1>Article title<br>
   <small>Subhead</small>
   </h1>
   <time>...</time>
</hgroup>

Some people probably question the use of <br> here (is it really a line 
break in the content itself - well, it's structural division if division 
of poems and postal address to lines is) as well as the meaning of 
<small> (does it mean "side content" relative to the enclosing element 
or absolutely). But this markup should work reasonably with "outlining" 
algorithms (which are a great idea though still of little practical 
value at present) and should render reasonably even without CSS, and 
could be styled with CSS easily, without unnecessarily complicated 
selectors.

> 2. Can I use<hgroup>  within an<a>  tag?

Yes, but should you

> 3. Thoughts on wrapping time with an H3?

In practice, it makes the time notation a 3rd-rank heading on current 
browsers, implying default rendering that might even be misleading and 
that would require extra measures to fix. If you could rely on <hgroup> 
really working, then it would be OK to use <h3>, since the time would be 
part of the heading of the article, just indicated as being lower in the 
hierarchy of the heading as a whole (heading group). But as a practical 
move... it means taking risks with little if anything that you could 
possibly win.

> The only reason I am using H3
> is so I can style the<time>  tag using CSS2.1 and have that styling
> work in older browsers (does that make sense?)

No, that does not make sense. Even <div> would be better. Generally, for 
the sole purpose of styling something you would like to appear as a 
block, <div> is best, as it has been for a long time. Since <div> has no 
default rendering beyond display: block, it is ideal for the purpose. 
HTML5 discourages such use, recommending that other elements be used in 
favor of the semantically empty <div>. While that's OK in the long run, 
well, the run _is_ going to be long...

However, you could use <p> instead of <div> here, as this seems to be 
the HTML5 way in matters like this. And it only costs setting margin: 0 
for the <p>, to remove the default top and bottom margin, or setting 
some desired values for those margins.

On the other hand, if you use

before any CSS code or references to CSS code, then even old versions of 
IE will recognize the <time> markup to the extent that you can style 
your <time> elements directly. I don't think you need to be more 
cross-browser than that, in such issues, as modern browsers let you 
style <time> directly.

-- 
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi  Sun May 15 23:33:39 2011
From: jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi (Jukka K. Korpela)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 09:33:39 +0300
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikvrsoyJAndeBAqr8ZumfMPMani5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>	<BANLkTim_NMwMQ-mJa-Qs-xmkpn6XhvVuCw@mail.gmail.com>	<BANLkTimP1Q_VwRr=zh1Au3zEwMHgUDQ-0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikvrsoyJAndeBAqr8ZumfMPMani5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DD0C543.2060000@kolumbus.fi>

16.5.2011 3:54, Micky Hulse kirjoitti:

> <header>
> <h1></h1>
> </header>
>
> If we were to consider this to be the primary logo for the
> template/website, what are your thoughts about making this an<h6>? I
> have always used<h6>  for the site logo, for example:

It is difficult to say which idea is more wrong.

A site logo is not a heading for a page. You would be using the same 
content as the main heading of _each page_ of a site, which is absurd, 
confusing, and bad for the way search engines will treat you. A site 
logo can of course be, and it very often is, part of the _header_ of a 
page - this is traditional, and HTML5 just adds specific _markup_ for 
the header. But headers and headings are different things.

A site logo isn't a 6th-rank heading either. In pre-HTML5 markup, <h6> 
always means 6th-rank (or 6th-level) heading with respect to the entire 
page. Does that make sense? What would be the deeply nested element that 
it is a heading for?

> <header>
> <h6><a href="http://site.com">Site Name</a>  Slogan</h6>
> </header>

Well, that's not about a logo but about name and slogan. But similar 
considerations apply. There is no reason to use any heading markup for 
it, as it is not a heading for the page or part thereof - rather, it is 
part of a header, presumably used consistently across pages of the site. 
It needs no special markup as such, though for styling or scripting 
purposes, you _can_ wrap it inside <div>, <span>, <p>, or perhaps 
something else. But not a heading, please.

> But maybe I can change my thinking about the logo's importance in an
> HTML5 document?

This is not about importance. You're not supposed to indicate the 
importance of elements by the use of heading elements - such attempts 
date back to the mid-1990s, when heading markup was the only way to make 
texts appear in different sizes. I'm talking about the _old_ times here, 
before the invention of <font>. It's time to let those times and the 
old-time use of heading markup go.

-- 
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi  Sun May 15 23:45:50 2011
From: jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi (Jukka K. Korpela)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 09:45:50 +0300
Subject: [html5] Template questions...
In-Reply-To: <4DD0C128.6010105@kolumbus.fi>
References: <BANLkTimGL_PHS-y=TMNeX7Ct9j-REhtcCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DD0C128.6010105@kolumbus.fi>
Message-ID: <4DD0C81E.6070606@kolumbus.fi>

16.5.2011 9:16, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

>> 2. Can I use<hgroup> within an<a> tag?
>
> Yes, but should you

Oops, I forgot to complete this part...

What I meant to say is that a construct like

is _allowed_ in HTML5, but the question is whether it would make sense 
and be useful.

I won't discuss the rendering and usability issue here, as it is a 
general problem with "block links" (<a href> with block-like elements 
inside it): what will it look like, and will users recognize it as a 
link, and will they recognize it as _a_ link (and not several separate 
links, due to possible appearance of separate underlined texts).

The _specific_ issue here is what the heading group would link to. It is 
difficult to imagine good uses for such links - as opposite to, say, 
combinations of texts and images that act as a news or ad "teaser" and 
acting as a single link to the full news article or advertorial.

If the href value "#" is to be taken nominally and not just a 
placeholder, then the link would point to the start of the document. 
That is allowed in HTML5, as in previous versions of HTML, but it is 
seldom useful. "Back to start [of page]" links are generally unnecessary 
and potentially very confusing. Even the naive separate "Back to start" 
or "Back to top" links are less confusing! At least they make it obvious 
that they are not normal links.

-- 
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From saurabh at skjworld.com  Mon May 16 04:48:19 2011
From: saurabh at skjworld.com (Saurabh Jain)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 17:18:19 +0530
Subject: [html5] Editor for specifications and request to start HTML 5 user
	groups
Message-ID: <BANLkTinzqW-5xPcCjA8wHmJgwVGSMLYyQg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I would like to offer my time to be an editor for companion specifications.
I came across WHATWG request for editors  on
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Companion_specifications. I have written India's
first book on J2ME and have been into HTML 5 and cloud computing for last
few years. I would like to edit a specification like any CSS extention,
registries, JS Changes, Animated GIFs or API for syntax highlighting.

My background is into mobile gaming, j2me, web architectures, user
interfaces and finance related software. JavaScript, user interfaces,
scalable architectures are my forte. So you can tell me which of the above
referred topics you can make me an editor off. You may also refer any other
topics to me based on my experience profile. Also let me know
the responsibilities and benefits of being an editor. Also  will this be
directly under WHATWG or will it be under W3C etc. Do give me some idea of
the amount of time I will have to devote so that I can schedule for that
time accordingly.

Also I would like to start HTML 5 user groups in India and specially in and
around Delhi area. Is there any official WHATWG or W3C user group list or
support program for user groups. Would you people be able to provide us any
help with respect to speakers. I can speak on HTML 5 for hours and have been
taking OpenClass events and mentoring sessions regularly on HTML 5, Social
Media Marketing and Cloud Computing. I am also the founder of the Amazon Web
Services User Group Delhi NCR. Amazon is sending its speaker for the event
on 15th May in my office in Delhi. I have the proper infrastructure for
 hosting user group events in Delhi. I also have requisite knowledge for
speaking at such user groups events and marketing such user group events.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
-- 
Saurabh Jain
Director
SKJ Technologies Private Limited
http://www.openclass.in
http://www.facebook.com/openpad
Author : Mobile Phone Programming using Java ME (J2ME)
http://library.skjworld.com/mobile-technology/java/java-me
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From ian at hixie.ch  Mon May 16 12:57:15 2011
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:57:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] Editor for specifications and request to start HTML 5
 user groups
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinzqW-5xPcCjA8wHmJgwVGSMLYyQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinzqW-5xPcCjA8wHmJgwVGSMLYyQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1105161921360.16840@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 16 May 2011, Saurabh Jain wrote:
> 
> I would like to offer my time to be an editor for companion specifications.
> I came across WHATWG request for editors  on
> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Companion_specifications. I have written India's
> first book on J2ME and have been into HTML 5 and cloud computing for last
> few years. I would like to edit a specification like any CSS extention,
> registries, JS Changes, Animated GIFs or API for syntax highlighting.

Great!

If you would like to edit CSS specifications, your best plan is to contact 
www-style at w3.org, the mailing list at the W3C where CSS is discussed.

If you're interested in working on registries, the easiest way to start is 
probably to start filling in this page based on what MIME types people 
are actually using in the wild:

http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Registry-MIME-types

This would involve doing some research to find out what types are common, 
documenting what the types mean and whether they're widely used or only 
supported by a limited set of tools (or indeed only used by one tool), and 
finding links to further documentation for the formats.

Once we have a lot of documented types, the idea is to start submitting 
registration requests to the IANA MIME type registry to get the IANA 
registry up to speed.

If you are looking at working on JavaScript, the best place to start is 
contacting the TC-39 working group:

http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/TC39.htm

If you are interested in writing a specification for Animated GIFs, the 
best place to start is probably reverse engineering how existing browsers 
and image editors handle animated GIFs, and documenting it in a public 
document. You are welcome to use the WHATWG wiki for this if you like.

If you would like to work on a specification for a syntax highlighting API 
for Web-based text editors (using <textarea> or contenteditable="") the 
best thing to do is to start prototyping how such an API would work. I 
recommend working with Aryeh (AryehGregor in #whatwg on Freenode IRC), who 
is working on other editing aspects at the moment.