From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 10:15:22 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:15:22 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
Message-ID: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>

I'm trying to use itemref to include a location using microdata, and I'm 
struggling. It's the wine tasting article at the bottom of the page at 
http://www.tenmercer.com/

Here's a simplified version:

<article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
   <header>
     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>

     hosted by
     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope 
itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope 
itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery">
         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
       </span>
     </div>
   </header>

   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa Valley</a>'s
   Franciscan Estate Winery.
   </p>

</article>


What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with 
the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion. I've tried 
various solutions, resulting in either the document not validating, or 
the microdata not being recognized by Google's rich snippets testing 
tool. I've searched for help, but my Google-fu is weak on this topic. 
Any pointers?

-- 
Brian Tremblay

From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 11:07:14 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:07:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>
> I'm trying to use itemref to include a location using microdata, and I'm 
> struggling. It's the wine tasting article at the bottom of the page at 
> http://www.tenmercer.com/
> 
> Here's a simplified version:
> 
> <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
>   <header>
>     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
> 
>     hosted by
>     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
>       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery">
>         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
>       </span>
>     </div>
>   </header>
> 
>   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
>   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa Valley</a>'s
>   Franciscan Estate Winery.
>   </p>
> 
> </article>
> 
> 
> What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with 
> the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion.

If you mean the URL:

  <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
   <header>
     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
 
     hosted by
     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
             itemref="wineryLocation">
         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
       </span>
     </div>
   </header>
 
   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
   <a id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion"
      href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa Valley</a>'s
   Franciscan Estate Winery.
   </p>
  </article>
 
If you mean the text, you need some additional markup because the <a> 
element in microdata only ever represents its URL, so e.g.:

  <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
   <header>
     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
 
     hosted by
     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
             itemref="wineryLocation">
         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
       </span>
     </div>
   </header>
 
   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"
    ><span id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion">Napa 
    Valley</span></a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.
   </p>
  </article>

Basically, though, you just put the itemref="" on the element with 
itemscope="" and give it IDs of elements to include as if they were 
children of the element with itemscope="".

HTH,
-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 11:57:19 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:57:19 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>>
>> What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with
>> the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion.
>
> If you mean the text, you need some additional markup because the <a>
> element in microdata only ever represents its URL, so e.g.:
>
>    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
>     <header>
>       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
>
>       hosted by
>       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
>         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
>               itemref="wineryLocation">
>           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
>         </span>
>       </div>
>     </header>
>
>     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
>     <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"
>      ><span id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion">Napa
>      Valley</span></a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.
>     </p>
>    </article>


That generates an error from Google's rich snippet testing tool:

"Warning: Page contains property "addressregion" which is not part of 
the schema."

The microdata food event does not contain an addressRegion property.

I could change the markup so that the <span id="wineryRegion"> is a 
nested postalAddress itemtype, but that would associate the *event* with 
that address, which is wrong. "Napa Valley" is the location of the 
winery, not the event.

These are the problems I always run into.

> Basically, though, you just put the itemref="" on the element with
> itemscope="" and give it IDs of elements to include as if they were
> children of the element with itemscope="".

That is indeed what the spec says, but I can not get it to work. :-(

-- 
Brian Tremblay

From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 12:09:27 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:09:27 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C64177.3080901@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to use itemref to include a location using microdata, and I'm
>> struggling. It's the wine tasting article at the bottom of the page at
>> http://www.tenmercer.com/

I have a test case on the site:

http://www.tenmercer.com/test/

Here's the test results:
http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tenmercer.com%2Ftest%2F&html=

-- 
Brian Tremblay

From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 12:57:10 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:57:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> > On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> > > 
> > > What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with
> > > the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion.
> > 
> > If you mean the text, you need some additional markup because the <a>
> > element in microdata only ever represents its URL, so e.g.:
> > 
> >    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
> >     <header>
> >       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
> > 
> >       hosted by
> >       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope
> > itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
> >         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
> >         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope
> > itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
> >               itemref="wineryLocation">
> >           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
> >         </span>
> >       </div>
> >     </header>
> > 
> >     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
> >     <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"
> >      ><span id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion">Napa
> >      Valley</span></a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.
> >     </p>
> >    </article>
> 
> That generates an error from Google's rich snippet testing tool:
> 
> "Warning: Page contains property "addressregion" which is not part of 
> the schema."

Ah, good point, I didn't think of that. Fundamentally the issue there is 
that you have data from different items overlapping; there's not much you 
can do about that.

The simplest, though unsatisfying, solution is just to use <meta>:

    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
     <header>
       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
       hosted by
       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery">
           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
           <meta itemprop="addressRegion" content="Napa Valley">
         </span>
       </div>
     </header>
     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
     <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa
     Valley</a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.</p>
    </article>

I don't think there's a good solution that doesn't involve duplication 
when a single element is a property for one item and contains a property 
for another; as it stands today there's no way to exclude a subtree from 
an item other than making it an item itself. If you wanted to do that, you 
could do something like this:

    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
     <header>
       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
       hosted by
       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
               itemref="napa">
           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
         </span>
       </div>
     </header>
     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
     <a itemscope href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"><span 
        itemprop="addressRegion" id="napa">Napa Valley</span></a>'s 
     Franciscan Estate Winery.</p>
    </article>

What this does is introduce an anonyous item which blocks out the 
addressRegion property from the outer FoodEvent item. It's a hack, 
certainly. It works, though, because anonymous items don't really mean 
much (they're just for private use by page authors), and it shouldn't 
interfere with any public use of the microdata (e.g. by schema.org 
processors and so on).

In the future we might introduce a way to explicitly exclude a subtree 
from an ancestor, if this is a common issue.


By the way, as far as I can tell addressRegion isn't a valid schema.org 
value for a Winery item. Looks like you need another item just for the 
addressRegion or something. This is quite the elaborate vocabulary. :-/

HTH,
-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 15:37:49 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:37:49 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 12:57 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>> On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p>
>>>> element with the winery in the header, as that winery's
>>>> addressRegion.
 >
> Fundamentally the issue there is that you have data from different
> items overlapping; there's not much you can do about that.
>
> I don't think there's a good solution that doesn't involve duplication
> when a single element is a property for one item and contains a property
> for another; as it stands today there's no way to exclude a subtree from
> an item other than making it an item itself. If you wanted to do that, you
> could do something like this:
>
>      <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
>       <header>
>         <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
>         hosted by
>         <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>           <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
>           <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
>                 itemref="napa">
>             <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
>           </span>
>         </div>
>       </header>
>       <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
>       <a itemscope href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"><span
>          itemprop="addressRegion" id="napa">Napa Valley</span></a>'s
>       Franciscan Estate Winery.</p>
>      </article>
>
> What this does is introduce an anonyous item which blocks out the
> addressRegion property from the outer FoodEvent item.

That indeed does the trick. And I would not have thought of that, so thanks.

> In the future we might introduce a way to explicitly exclude a subtree
> from an ancestor, if this is a common issue.

It seems like it would be, even in less complicated cases than mine.

> By the way, as far as I can tell addressRegion isn't a valid schema.org
> value for a Winery item. Looks like you need another item just for the
> addressRegion or something.

Yes, but I wanted to keep the example as simple as possible. In the live 
version, the item included via itemref has itemprop="location", and an 
itemtype which is set to PostalAddress.

> This is quite the elaborate vocabulary. :-/

Yes, a bit more complicated than needed, I suppose. In the end, 
including the addressRegion of the winery was hardly crucial, but I 
wanted to know if it was possible.

By contrast, everything else is necessary: a restaurant, with an event, 
hosted by a person, employed by a winery. I don't know if anyone does 
anything with events microdata right now. But if they did, they might 
search for wine events at Seattle restaurants, or search for events 
featuring a winery they like, or wines from a region they like.

I dunno. Maybe this whole thing is a waste of effort on my part.  :-/

-- 
Brian Tremblay

From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 15:49:06 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 23:49:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> > 
> > In the future we might introduce a way to explicitly exclude a subtree 
> > from an ancestor, if this is a common issue.
> 
> It seems like it would be, even in less complicated cases than mine.

I haven't seen many examples of it, but it's definitely something I'll 
keep an eye open for.


> By contrast, everything else is necessary: a restaurant, with an event, 
> hosted by a person, employed by a winery. I don't know if anyone does 
> anything with events microdata right now. But if they did, they might 
> search for wine events at Seattle restaurants, or search for events 
> featuring a winery they like, or wines from a region they like.
> 
> I dunno. Maybe this whole thing is a waste of effort on my part.  :-/

If you're getting something out of it (e.g. prettier search results 
snippets in search engines), then it's worth it. If not... I generally 
don't recommend solving problems that don't yet exist. :-)

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 16:06:23 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:06:23 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C678FF.7010901@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 3:49 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>
>> everything else is necessary: a restaurant, with an event, hosted
>> by a person, employed by a winery. I don't know if anyone does
>> anything with events microdata right now. But if they did, they
>> might search for wine events at Seattle restaurants, or search for
>> events featuring a winery they like, or wines from a region they
>> like.
>>
>> I dunno. Maybe this whole thing is a waste of effort on my part.
>
> If you're getting something out of it (e.g. prettier search results
> snippets in search engines), then it's worth it.

Only rarely -- with specific searches -- do I see rich snippets in
search results. It's so rare, that I can't duplicate those results.

> If not... I generally don't recommend solving problems that don't yet
> exist. :-)

That's certainly good advice.

I keep waiting for Google to include my rich snippets more consistently. 
I'd also think that there would be a market for restaurant searches 
where my microdata could prove useful, perhaps to find restaurants 
serving a certain cuisine. But there's no way to know if *anyone* is 
using it.

There are browser tools to help users process data (to add an event to 
their calendar, for example), but they seem to be limited to 
microformats right now. And how many people actually use such tools?

In the end, you're probably right: there's no point in doing this 
without knowing whether it's useful.

-- 
Brian Tremblay

From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 20:44:29 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 04:44:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C678FF.7010901@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C678FF.7010901@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212110433400.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> 
> I keep waiting for Google to include my rich snippets more consistently. 
> I'd also think that there would be a market for restaurant searches 
> where my microdata could prove useful, perhaps to find restaurants 
> serving a certain cuisine. But there's no way to know if *anyone* is 
> using it.
>
> There are browser tools to help users process data (to add an event to 
> their calendar, for example), but they seem to be limited to 
> microformats right now. And how many people actually use such tools?

One thing you might be able to do to determine if anyone is using it is 
use a unique URL for some image property and see if you get any hits for 
it. It wouldn't catch all uses, but...

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Dec 13 14:48:13 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 22:48:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] Why HTML5 deprecated percentage defined coords<area>?
In-Reply-To: <CADJHuJCzTj63dK6xdLHVAHvCDKCCuxfWyG8vHnHMaeiTbnwxSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADJHuJCzTj63dK6xdLHVAHvCDKCCuxfWyG8vHnHMaeiTbnwxSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212132247090.9975@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Stefano Gargiulo wrote:
>
>  https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Element/area
> 
> > *coords
> > *A set of values specifying the coordinates of the hot-spot region. The
> > number and meaning of the values depend upon the value specified for the *
> > shape* attribute. For a rect or rectangle shape, the *coords* value is
> > two x,y pairs: left, top, right, and bottom. For a circle shape, the
> > value is x,y,r where x,y is a pair specifying the center of the circle
> > and r is a value for the radius. For a poly or polygon< shape, the value
> > is a set of x,y pairs for each point in the polygon: x1,y1,x2,y2,x3,y3,and
> > so on. I
> > *In HTML4, the values are numbers of pixels or percentages, if a percent
> > sign (%) is appended; in HTML5, the values are numbers of CSS pixels.*
> 
> Why HTML5 deprecated percentage coords definition in the area tag?

Because after some 6 years, browsers still hadn't implemented it.


> In my case, I'm trying to implement a pure DOM  clickable pie-slices (not
> with Canvas or SVG just because it need to be a cross browser app).

Since percentages don't work in many browsers, while canvas and SVG do, I 
think I would recommend using canvas or SVG. :-)

(In this case, probably SVG.)

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

From penny.lane.mini at gmail.com  Thu Dec 13 18:45:36 2012
From: penny.lane.mini at gmail.com (Tom Fulcher)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:45:36 +1100
Subject: [html5] WOFF Fonts outlined at small sizes
Message-ID: <CALL9+95Y6pUgnjtg6NCe0KDCgNQEkD8FbMY0=B99dx+2Pm_q2g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All, I've found a funny situation with the bulk of the icons I've
tested.. browsers using the woff format (best seen in ff) will show an
outlined version of icons if the font size is below a certain amount of ems
but all other browsers work fine. I increase the font size and they then
become coloured.. see here for an example..
http://hashbang.envoyat.com/testpage.html - this will use svg in most
browsers but woff in firefox which will result in outlined icons if you
display the same page without svg icons in any browser:
http://hashbang.envoyat.com/testpage-no-svg.html

you'll notice icon number 4 is outlined until it reaches a certain font
size.

notice the build and iterate icon.. bump up the font size in firebug to
4.3em and it is fully coloured again?

Just wondering if anyone had a way around this as I need them at the
smaller size!
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From artzone_1 at comcast.net  Sun Dec 16 18:22:58 2012
From: artzone_1 at comcast.net (Mary Nelson)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:22:58 -0500
Subject: [html5] please help me get off these lists
Message-ID: <CE2DBD76-F125-42F8-8CBD-40454C166532@comcast.net>

I am dyslexic and even though I wish I could I cannot handle all the emails I am getting.  Hard to admit but true I can't find the emails I really need to find so please if your information is very technical especially script I would appreciate help getting off. Sorry for the inconvience.

From kdeamndl at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 03:03:51 2012
From: kdeamndl at gmail.com (Kevin Deamandel)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 12:03:51 +0100
Subject: [html5] please help me get off these lists
In-Reply-To: <CE2DBD76-F125-42F8-8CBD-40454C166532@comcast.net>
References: <CE2DBD76-F125-42F8-8CBD-40454C166532@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAM6rdwt3+Ywkt-85J9TNiH86XZ4iFjymbJvb+pxSgtDU71ppuA@mail.gmail.com>

send unsubscribe to help-request at lists.whatwg.org

-Kevin

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Mary Nelson <artzone_1 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I am dyslexic and even though I wish I could I cannot handle all the emails I am getting.  Hard to admit but true I can't find the emails I really need to find so please if your information is very technical especially script I would appreciate help getting off. Sorry for the inconvience.
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org

From yillkid at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 11:25:12 2012
From: yillkid at gmail.com (=?Big5?B?tsCrVLe2?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 03:25:12 +0800
Subject: [html5] SVG lineTo in a loop
Message-ID: <CAEgOEMv82HRB+xUf67=mcN5w6jLFL_x2u3HM+K-QgLrLw+s5XQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all.

I can coding as blow to draw a polygonal line:

var ctx = canvas.getContext("2d");
ctx.beginPath();

ctx.moveTo(0,126);

{ data in loop }
    ctx.lineTo(x , {{data}});
{ endfor }

ctx.stroke();
ctx.closePath();

But if I want to set a moveto one time and multi times lineto with a loop,
how I should do with SVG ?
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From cabanier at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 11:58:39 2012
From: cabanier at gmail.com (Rik Cabanier)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:58:39 -0800
Subject: [html5] SVG lineTo in a loop
In-Reply-To: <CAEgOEMv82HRB+xUf67=mcN5w6jLFL_x2u3HM+K-QgLrLw+s5XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEgOEMv82HRB+xUf67=mcN5w6jLFL_x2u3HM+K-QgLrLw+s5XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN7qDBfJwPOeb3rK6g7GBPVc70nN9Tqd8WhtyU5oEqEGVsR3w@mail.gmail.com>

This seems more like a question for www-svg.
Can you also post a jsfiddle so we can see what you're trying to accomplish?

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 11:25 AM, ??? <yillkid at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> I can coding as blow to draw a polygonal line:
>
> var ctx = canvas.getContext("2d");
> ctx.beginPath();
>
> ctx.moveTo(0,126);
>
> { data in loop }
>     ctx.lineTo(x , {{data}});
> { endfor }
>
> ctx.stroke();
> ctx.closePath();
>
> But if I want to set a moveto one time and multi times lineto with a loop,
> how I should do with SVG ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>
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From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Sun Dec 30 08:55:36 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 08:55:36 -0800
Subject: [html5] the case for a <dli> element
Message-ID: <50E07208.1050807@tsmchughs.com>

I'm using <dl> markup for a restaurant menu, and have added product 
microdata markup from schema.org. Because items in a <dl> are defined 
implicitly -- <dt> element(s) followed by <dd> element(s) --  there's no 
easy way to scope them individually. What I'm left doing is adding 2 id 
attributes for each menu item, and using itemref:

http://tsmchughs.com/test/dessert

If we had a <dli> element, to scope each item in a description list, the 
markup needed to add microdata (or microformats) would be much simpler. 
Here's an example:

http://tsmchughs.com/test/dessert-test

Note that these are test examples derived from a real world example. 
Here's the dessert menu for the restaurant:

http://tsmchughs.com/menus/dessert

Because the list is short, I've added the necessary id and itemref 
attributes. But I have not for longer menus, e.g.:

http://tsmchughs.com/menus/lunch
http://tsmchughs.com/menus/dinner

The authoring costs -- maintaining 2 unique ids for each menu item -- 
are too high for anything more than a few items. Using <table> markup 
for a menu is much easier:

http://www.tenmercer.com/menu/dinner

Therefore, I think we need a <dli> element. This has come up in the 
past. If I understand correctly, the editor has declined, saying that 
the need for <dli> is only to make styling easier, so the problem should 
be solved in css. But I think the problem here is not styling, it's 
creating natural, discrete items in a description list, which might be 
used for styling, or for microdata, or perhaps for other reasons which I 
haven't thought of. Without <dli>, use of <dl> becomes much harder to 
use even though it may be the best markup choice.

-- 
Brian Tremblay

From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 10:15:22 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:15:22 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
Message-ID: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>

I'm trying to use itemref to include a location using microdata, and I'm 
struggling. It's the wine tasting article at the bottom of the page at 
http://www.tenmercer.com/

Here's a simplified version:

<article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
   <header>
     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>

     hosted by
     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope 
itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope 
itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery">
         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
       </span>
     </div>
   </header>

   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa Valley</a>'s
   Franciscan Estate Winery.
   </p>

</article>


What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with 
the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion. I've tried 
various solutions, resulting in either the document not validating, or 
the microdata not being recognized by Google's rich snippets testing 
tool. I've searched for help, but my Google-fu is weak on this topic. 
Any pointers?

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 11:07:14 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:07:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>
> I'm trying to use itemref to include a location using microdata, and I'm 
> struggling. It's the wine tasting article at the bottom of the page at 
> http://www.tenmercer.com/
> 
> Here's a simplified version:
> 
> <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
>   <header>
>     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
> 
>     hosted by
>     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
>       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery">
>         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
>       </span>
>     </div>
>   </header>
> 
>   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
>   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa Valley</a>'s
>   Franciscan Estate Winery.
>   </p>
> 
> </article>
> 
> 
> What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with 
> the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion.

If you mean the URL:

  <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
   <header>
     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
 
     hosted by
     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
             itemref="wineryLocation">
         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
       </span>
     </div>
   </header>
 
   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
   <a id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion"
      href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa Valley</a>'s
   Franciscan Estate Winery.
   </p>
  </article>
 
If you mean the text, you need some additional markup because the <a> 
element in microdata only ever represents its URL, so e.g.:

  <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
   <header>
     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
 
     hosted by
     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
             itemref="wineryLocation">
         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
       </span>
     </div>
   </header>
 
   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"
    ><span id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion">Napa 
    Valley</span></a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.
   </p>
  </article>

Basically, though, you just put the itemref="" on the element with 
itemscope="" and give it IDs of elements to include as if they were 
children of the element with itemscope="".

HTH,
-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 11:57:19 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:57:19 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>>
>> What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with
>> the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion.
>
> If you mean the text, you need some additional markup because the <a>
> element in microdata only ever represents its URL, so e.g.:
>
>    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
>     <header>
>       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
>
>       hosted by
>       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
>         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
>               itemref="wineryLocation">
>           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
>         </span>
>       </div>
>     </header>
>
>     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
>     <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"
>      ><span id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion">Napa
>      Valley</span></a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.
>     </p>
>    </article>


That generates an error from Google's rich snippet testing tool:

"Warning: Page contains property "addressregion" which is not part of 
the schema."

The microdata food event does not contain an addressRegion property.

I could change the markup so that the <span id="wineryRegion"> is a 
nested postalAddress itemtype, but that would associate the *event* with 
that address, which is wrong. "Napa Valley" is the location of the 
winery, not the event.

These are the problems I always run into.

> Basically, though, you just put the itemref="" on the element with
> itemscope="" and give it IDs of elements to include as if they were
> children of the element with itemscope="".

That is indeed what the spec says, but I can not get it to work. :-(

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 12:09:27 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:09:27 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C64177.3080901@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to use itemref to include a location using microdata, and I'm
>> struggling. It's the wine tasting article at the bottom of the page at
>> http://www.tenmercer.com/

I have a test case on the site:

http://www.tenmercer.com/test/

Here's the test results:
http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tenmercer.com%2Ftest%2F&html=

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 12:57:10 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:57:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> > On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> > > 
> > > What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with
> > > the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion.
> > 
> > If you mean the text, you need some additional markup because the <a>
> > element in microdata only ever represents its URL, so e.g.:
> > 
> >    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
> >     <header>
> >       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
> > 
> >       hosted by
> >       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope
> > itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
> >         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
> >         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope
> > itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
> >               itemref="wineryLocation">
> >           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
> >         </span>
> >       </div>
> >     </header>
> > 
> >     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
> >     <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"
> >      ><span id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion">Napa
> >      Valley</span></a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.
> >     </p>
> >    </article>
> 
> That generates an error from Google's rich snippet testing tool:
> 
> "Warning: Page contains property "addressregion" which is not part of 
> the schema."

Ah, good point, I didn't think of that. Fundamentally the issue there is 
that you have data from different items overlapping; there's not much you 
can do about that.

The simplest, though unsatisfying, solution is just to use <meta>:

    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
     <header>
       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
       hosted by
       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery">
           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
           <meta itemprop="addressRegion" content="Napa Valley">
         </span>
       </div>
     </header>
     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
     <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa
     Valley</a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.</p>
    </article>

I don't think there's a good solution that doesn't involve duplication 
when a single element is a property for one item and contains a property 
for another; as it stands today there's no way to exclude a subtree from 
an item other than making it an item itself. If you wanted to do that, you 
could do something like this:

    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
     <header>
       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
       hosted by
       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
               itemref="napa">
           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
         </span>
       </div>
     </header>
     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
     <a itemscope href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"><span 
        itemprop="addressRegion" id="napa">Napa Valley</span></a>'s 
     Franciscan Estate Winery.</p>
    </article>

What this does is introduce an anonyous item which blocks out the 
addressRegion property from the outer FoodEvent item. It's a hack, 
certainly. It works, though, because anonymous items don't really mean 
much (they're just for private use by page authors), and it shouldn't 
interfere with any public use of the microdata (e.g. by schema.org 
processors and so on).

In the future we might introduce a way to explicitly exclude a subtree 
from an ancestor, if this is a common issue.


By the way, as far as I can tell addressRegion isn't a valid schema.org 
value for a Winery item. Looks like you need another item just for the 
addressRegion or something. This is quite the elaborate vocabulary. :-/

HTH,
-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 15:37:49 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:37:49 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 12:57 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>> On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p>
>>>> element with the winery in the header, as that winery's
>>>> addressRegion.
 >
> Fundamentally the issue there is that you have data from different
> items overlapping; there's not much you can do about that.
>
> I don't think there's a good solution that doesn't involve duplication
> when a single element is a property for one item and contains a property
> for another; as it stands today there's no way to exclude a subtree from
> an item other than making it an item itself. If you wanted to do that, you
> could do something like this:
>
>      <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
>       <header>
>         <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
>         hosted by
>         <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>           <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
>           <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
>                 itemref="napa">
>             <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
>           </span>
>         </div>
>       </header>
>       <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
>       <a itemscope href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"><span
>          itemprop="addressRegion" id="napa">Napa Valley</span></a>'s
>       Franciscan Estate Winery.</p>
>      </article>
>
> What this does is introduce an anonyous item which blocks out the
> addressRegion property from the outer FoodEvent item.

That indeed does the trick. And I would not have thought of that, so thanks.

> In the future we might introduce a way to explicitly exclude a subtree
> from an ancestor, if this is a common issue.

It seems like it would be, even in less complicated cases than mine.

> By the way, as far as I can tell addressRegion isn't a valid schema.org
> value for a Winery item. Looks like you need another item just for the
> addressRegion or something.

Yes, but I wanted to keep the example as simple as possible. In the live 
version, the item included via itemref has itemprop="location", and an 
itemtype which is set to PostalAddress.

> This is quite the elaborate vocabulary. :-/

Yes, a bit more complicated than needed, I suppose. In the end, 
including the addressRegion of the winery was hardly crucial, but I 
wanted to know if it was possible.

By contrast, everything else is necessary: a restaurant, with an event, 
hosted by a person, employed by a winery. I don't know if anyone does 
anything with events microdata right now. But if they did, they might 
search for wine events at Seattle restaurants, or search for events 
featuring a winery they like, or wines from a region they like.

I dunno. Maybe this whole thing is a waste of effort on my part.  :-/

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 15:49:06 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 23:49:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> > 
> > In the future we might introduce a way to explicitly exclude a subtree 
> > from an ancestor, if this is a common issue.
> 
> It seems like it would be, even in less complicated cases than mine.

I haven't seen many examples of it, but it's definitely something I'll 
keep an eye open for.


> By contrast, everything else is necessary: a restaurant, with an event, 
> hosted by a person, employed by a winery. I don't know if anyone does 
> anything with events microdata right now. But if they did, they might 
> search for wine events at Seattle restaurants, or search for events 
> featuring a winery they like, or wines from a region they like.
> 
> I dunno. Maybe this whole thing is a waste of effort on my part.  :-/

If you're getting something out of it (e.g. prettier search results 
snippets in search engines), then it's worth it. If not... I generally 
don't recommend solving problems that don't yet exist. :-)

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 16:06:23 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:06:23 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C678FF.7010901@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 3:49 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>
>> everything else is necessary: a restaurant, with an event, hosted
>> by a person, employed by a winery. I don't know if anyone does
>> anything with events microdata right now. But if they did, they
>> might search for wine events at Seattle restaurants, or search for
>> events featuring a winery they like, or wines from a region they
>> like.
>>
>> I dunno. Maybe this whole thing is a waste of effort on my part.
>
> If you're getting something out of it (e.g. prettier search results
> snippets in search engines), then it's worth it.

Only rarely -- with specific searches -- do I see rich snippets in
search results. It's so rare, that I can't duplicate those results.

> If not... I generally don't recommend solving problems that don't yet
> exist. :-)

That's certainly good advice.

I keep waiting for Google to include my rich snippets more consistently. 
I'd also think that there would be a market for restaurant searches 
where my microdata could prove useful, perhaps to find restaurants 
serving a certain cuisine. But there's no way to know if *anyone* is 
using it.

There are browser tools to help users process data (to add an event to 
their calendar, for example), but they seem to be limited to 
microformats right now. And how many people actually use such tools?

In the end, you're probably right: there's no point in doing this 
without knowing whether it's useful.

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 20:44:29 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 04:44:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C678FF.7010901@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C678FF.7010901@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212110433400.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> 
> I keep waiting for Google to include my rich snippets more consistently. 
> I'd also think that there would be a market for restaurant searches 
> where my microdata could prove useful, perhaps to find restaurants 
> serving a certain cuisine. But there's no way to know if *anyone* is 
> using it.
>
> There are browser tools to help users process data (to add an event to 
> their calendar, for example), but they seem to be limited to 
> microformats right now. And how many people actually use such tools?

One thing you might be able to do to determine if anyone is using it is 
use a unique URL for some image property and see if you get any hits for 
it. It wouldn't catch all uses, but...

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Dec 13 14:48:13 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 22:48:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] Why HTML5 deprecated percentage defined coords<area>?
In-Reply-To: <CADJHuJCzTj63dK6xdLHVAHvCDKCCuxfWyG8vHnHMaeiTbnwxSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADJHuJCzTj63dK6xdLHVAHvCDKCCuxfWyG8vHnHMaeiTbnwxSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212132247090.9975@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Stefano Gargiulo wrote:
>
>  https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Element/area
> 
> > *coords
> > *A set of values specifying the coordinates of the hot-spot region. The
> > number and meaning of the values depend upon the value specified for the *
> > shape* attribute. For a rect or rectangle shape, the *coords* value is
> > two x,y pairs: left, top, right, and bottom. For a circle shape, the
> > value is x,y,r where x,y is a pair specifying the center of the circle
> > and r is a value for the radius. For a poly or polygon< shape, the value
> > is a set of x,y pairs for each point in the polygon: x1,y1,x2,y2,x3,y3,and
> > so on. I
> > *In HTML4, the values are numbers of pixels or percentages, if a percent
> > sign (%) is appended; in HTML5, the values are numbers of CSS pixels.*
> 
> Why HTML5 deprecated percentage coords definition in the area tag?

Because after some 6 years, browsers still hadn't implemented it.


> In my case, I'm trying to implement a pure DOM  clickable pie-slices (not
> with Canvas or SVG just because it need to be a cross browser app).

Since percentages don't work in many browsers, while canvas and SVG do, I 
think I would recommend using canvas or SVG. :-)

(In this case, probably SVG.)

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From penny.lane.mini at gmail.com  Thu Dec 13 18:45:36 2012
From: penny.lane.mini at gmail.com (Tom Fulcher)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:45:36 +1100
Subject: [html5] WOFF Fonts outlined at small sizes
Message-ID: <CALL9+95Y6pUgnjtg6NCe0KDCgNQEkD8FbMY0=B99dx+2Pm_q2g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All, I've found a funny situation with the bulk of the icons I've
tested.. browsers using the woff format (best seen in ff) will show an
outlined version of icons if the font size is below a certain amount of ems
but all other browsers work fine. I increase the font size and they then
become coloured.. see here for an example..
http://hashbang.envoyat.com/testpage.html - this will use svg in most
browsers but woff in firefox which will result in outlined icons if you
display the same page without svg icons in any browser:
http://hashbang.envoyat.com/testpage-no-svg.html

you'll notice icon number 4 is outlined until it reaches a certain font
size.

notice the build and iterate icon.. bump up the font size in firebug to
4.3em and it is fully coloured again?

Just wondering if anyone had a way around this as I need them at the
smaller size!
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From artzone_1 at comcast.net  Sun Dec 16 18:22:58 2012
From: artzone_1 at comcast.net (Mary Nelson)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:22:58 -0500
Subject: [html5] please help me get off these lists
Message-ID: <CE2DBD76-F125-42F8-8CBD-40454C166532@comcast.net>

I am dyslexic and even though I wish I could I cannot handle all the emails I am getting.  Hard to admit but true I can't find the emails I really need to find so please if your information is very technical especially script I would appreciate help getting off. Sorry for the inconvience.

From kdeamndl at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 03:03:51 2012
From: kdeamndl at gmail.com (Kevin Deamandel)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 12:03:51 +0100
Subject: [html5] please help me get off these lists
In-Reply-To: <CE2DBD76-F125-42F8-8CBD-40454C166532@comcast.net>
References: <CE2DBD76-F125-42F8-8CBD-40454C166532@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAM6rdwt3+Ywkt-85J9TNiH86XZ4iFjymbJvb+pxSgtDU71ppuA@mail.gmail.com>

send unsubscribe to help-request at lists.whatwg.org

-Kevin

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Mary Nelson <artzone_1 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I am dyslexic and even though I wish I could I cannot handle all the emails I am getting.  Hard to admit but true I can't find the emails I really need to find so please if your information is very technical especially script I would appreciate help getting off. Sorry for the inconvience.
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org


From yillkid at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 11:25:12 2012
From: yillkid at gmail.com (=?Big5?B?tsCrVLe2?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 03:25:12 +0800
Subject: [html5] SVG lineTo in a loop
Message-ID: <CAEgOEMv82HRB+xUf67=mcN5w6jLFL_x2u3HM+K-QgLrLw+s5XQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all.

I can coding as blow to draw a polygonal line:

var ctx = canvas.getContext("2d");
ctx.beginPath();

ctx.moveTo(0,126);

{ data in loop }
    ctx.lineTo(x , {{data}});
{ endfor }

ctx.stroke();
ctx.closePath();

But if I want to set a moveto one time and multi times lineto with a loop,
how I should do with SVG ?
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From cabanier at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 11:58:39 2012
From: cabanier at gmail.com (Rik Cabanier)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:58:39 -0800
Subject: [html5] SVG lineTo in a loop
In-Reply-To: <CAEgOEMv82HRB+xUf67=mcN5w6jLFL_x2u3HM+K-QgLrLw+s5XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEgOEMv82HRB+xUf67=mcN5w6jLFL_x2u3HM+K-QgLrLw+s5XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN7qDBfJwPOeb3rK6g7GBPVc70nN9Tqd8WhtyU5oEqEGVsR3w@mail.gmail.com>

This seems more like a question for www-svg.
Can you also post a jsfiddle so we can see what you're trying to accomplish?

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 11:25 AM, ??? <yillkid at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> I can coding as blow to draw a polygonal line:
>
> var ctx = canvas.getContext("2d");
> ctx.beginPath();
>
> ctx.moveTo(0,126);
>
> { data in loop }
>     ctx.lineTo(x , {{data}});
> { endfor }
>
> ctx.stroke();
> ctx.closePath();
>
> But if I want to set a moveto one time and multi times lineto with a loop,
> how I should do with SVG ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>
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From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Sun Dec 30 08:55:36 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 08:55:36 -0800
Subject: [html5] the case for a <dli> element
Message-ID: <50E07208.1050807@tsmchughs.com>

I'm using <dl> markup for a restaurant menu, and have added product 
microdata markup from schema.org. Because items in a <dl> are defined 
implicitly -- <dt> element(s) followed by <dd> element(s) --  there's no 
easy way to scope them individually. What I'm left doing is adding 2 id 
attributes for each menu item, and using itemref:

http://tsmchughs.com/test/dessert

If we had a <dli> element, to scope each item in a description list, the 
markup needed to add microdata (or microformats) would be much simpler. 
Here's an example:

http://tsmchughs.com/test/dessert-test

Note that these are test examples derived from a real world example. 
Here's the dessert menu for the restaurant:

http://tsmchughs.com/menus/dessert

Because the list is short, I've added the necessary id and itemref 
attributes. But I have not for longer menus, e.g.:

http://tsmchughs.com/menus/lunch
http://tsmchughs.com/menus/dinner

The authoring costs -- maintaining 2 unique ids for each menu item -- 
are too high for anything more than a few items. Using <table> markup 
for a menu is much easier:

http://www.tenmercer.com/menu/dinner

Therefore, I think we need a <dli> element. This has come up in the 
past. If I understand correctly, the editor has declined, saying that 
the need for <dli> is only to make styling easier, so the problem should 
be solved in css. But I think the problem here is not styling, it's 
creating natural, discrete items in a description list, which might be 
used for styling, or for microdata, or perhaps for other reasons which I 
haven't thought of. Without <dli>, use of <dl> becomes much harder to 
use even though it may be the best markup choice.

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 10:15:22 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:15:22 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
Message-ID: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>

I'm trying to use itemref to include a location using microdata, and I'm 
struggling. It's the wine tasting article at the bottom of the page at 
http://www.tenmercer.com/

Here's a simplified version:

<article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
   <header>
     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>

     hosted by
     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope 
itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope 
itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery">
         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
       </span>
     </div>
   </header>

   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa Valley</a>'s
   Franciscan Estate Winery.
   </p>

</article>


What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with 
the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion. I've tried 
various solutions, resulting in either the document not validating, or 
the microdata not being recognized by Google's rich snippets testing 
tool. I've searched for help, but my Google-fu is weak on this topic. 
Any pointers?

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 11:07:14 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:07:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>
> I'm trying to use itemref to include a location using microdata, and I'm 
> struggling. It's the wine tasting article at the bottom of the page at 
> http://www.tenmercer.com/
> 
> Here's a simplified version:
> 
> <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
>   <header>
>     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
> 
>     hosted by
>     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
>       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery">
>         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
>       </span>
>     </div>
>   </header>
> 
>   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
>   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa Valley</a>'s
>   Franciscan Estate Winery.
>   </p>
> 
> </article>
> 
> 
> What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with 
> the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion.

If you mean the URL:

  <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
   <header>
     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
 
     hosted by
     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
             itemref="wineryLocation">
         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
       </span>
     </div>
   </header>
 
   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
   <a id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion"
      href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa Valley</a>'s
   Franciscan Estate Winery.
   </p>
  </article>
 
If you mean the text, you need some additional markup because the <a> 
element in microdata only ever represents its URL, so e.g.:

  <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
   <header>
     <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
 
     hosted by
     <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
       <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
       <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
             itemref="wineryLocation">
         <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
       </span>
     </div>
   </header>
 
   <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"
    ><span id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion">Napa 
    Valley</span></a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.
   </p>
  </article>

Basically, though, you just put the itemref="" on the element with 
itemscope="" and give it IDs of elements to include as if they were 
children of the element with itemscope="".

HTH,
-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 11:57:19 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:57:19 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>>
>> What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with
>> the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion.
>
> If you mean the text, you need some additional markup because the <a>
> element in microdata only ever represents its URL, so e.g.:
>
>    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
>     <header>
>       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
>
>       hosted by
>       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
>         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
>               itemref="wineryLocation">
>           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
>         </span>
>       </div>
>     </header>
>
>     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
>     <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"
>      ><span id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion">Napa
>      Valley</span></a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.
>     </p>
>    </article>


That generates an error from Google's rich snippet testing tool:

"Warning: Page contains property "addressregion" which is not part of 
the schema."

The microdata food event does not contain an addressRegion property.

I could change the markup so that the <span id="wineryRegion"> is a 
nested postalAddress itemtype, but that would associate the *event* with 
that address, which is wrong. "Napa Valley" is the location of the 
winery, not the event.

These are the problems I always run into.

> Basically, though, you just put the itemref="" on the element with
> itemscope="" and give it IDs of elements to include as if they were
> children of the element with itemscope="".

That is indeed what the spec says, but I can not get it to work. :-(

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 12:09:27 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:09:27 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C64177.3080901@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to use itemref to include a location using microdata, and I'm
>> struggling. It's the wine tasting article at the bottom of the page at
>> http://www.tenmercer.com/

I have a test case on the site:

http://www.tenmercer.com/test/

Here's the test results:
http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tenmercer.com%2Ftest%2F&html=

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 12:57:10 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:57:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> > On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> > > 
> > > What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p> element with
> > > the winery in the header, as that winery's addressRegion.
> > 
> > If you mean the text, you need some additional markup because the <a>
> > element in microdata only ever represents its URL, so e.g.:
> > 
> >    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
> >     <header>
> >       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
> > 
> >       hosted by
> >       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope
> > itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
> >         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
> >         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope
> > itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
> >               itemref="wineryLocation">
> >           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
> >         </span>
> >       </div>
> >     </header>
> > 
> >     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
> >     <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"
> >      ><span id="wineryLocation" itemprop="addressRegion">Napa
> >      Valley</span></a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.
> >     </p>
> >    </article>
> 
> That generates an error from Google's rich snippet testing tool:
> 
> "Warning: Page contains property "addressregion" which is not part of 
> the schema."

Ah, good point, I didn't think of that. Fundamentally the issue there is 
that you have data from different items overlapping; there's not much you 
can do about that.

The simplest, though unsatisfying, solution is just to use <meta>:

    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
     <header>
       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
       hosted by
       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery">
           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
           <meta itemprop="addressRegion" content="Napa Valley">
         </span>
       </div>
     </header>
     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
     <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA">Napa
     Valley</a>'s Franciscan Estate Winery.</p>
    </article>

I don't think there's a good solution that doesn't involve duplication 
when a single element is a property for one item and contains a property 
for another; as it stands today there's no way to exclude a subtree from 
an item other than making it an item itself. If you wanted to do that, you 
could do something like this:

    <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
     <header>
       <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
       hosted by
       <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
         <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
         <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
               itemref="napa">
           <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
         </span>
       </div>
     </header>
     <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
     <a itemscope href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"><span 
        itemprop="addressRegion" id="napa">Napa Valley</span></a>'s 
     Franciscan Estate Winery.</p>
    </article>

What this does is introduce an anonyous item which blocks out the 
addressRegion property from the outer FoodEvent item. It's a hack, 
certainly. It works, though, because anonymous items don't really mean 
much (they're just for private use by page authors), and it shouldn't 
interfere with any public use of the microdata (e.g. by schema.org 
processors and so on).

In the future we might introduce a way to explicitly exclude a subtree 
from an ancestor, if this is a common issue.


By the way, as far as I can tell addressRegion isn't a valid schema.org 
value for a Winery item. Looks like you need another item just for the 
addressRegion or something. This is quite the elaborate vocabulary. :-/

HTH,
-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 15:37:49 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:37:49 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 12:57 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>> On 12/10/12 11:07 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What I'm trying to do is associate "Napa Valley" in the <p>
>>>> element with the winery in the header, as that winery's
>>>> addressRegion.
 >
> Fundamentally the issue there is that you have data from different
> items overlapping; there's not much you can do about that.
>
> I don't think there's a good solution that doesn't involve duplication
> when a single element is a property for one item and contains a property
> for another; as it stands today there's no way to exclude a subtree from
> an item other than making it an item itself. If you wanted to do that, you
> could do something like this:
>
>      <article itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/FoodEvent">
>       <header>
>         <h1 itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate tasting</h1>
>         hosted by
>         <div itemprop="performer" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Person">
>           <span itemprop="name">J. Kounellas</span>,
>           <span itemprop="worksFor" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Winery"
>                 itemref="napa">
>             <span itemprop="name">Franciscan Estate Winery</span>
>           </span>
>         </div>
>       </header>
>       <p itemprop="description">Join us for a special wine event featuring
>       <a itemscope href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_Valley_AVA"><span
>          itemprop="addressRegion" id="napa">Napa Valley</span></a>'s
>       Franciscan Estate Winery.</p>
>      </article>
>
> What this does is introduce an anonyous item which blocks out the
> addressRegion property from the outer FoodEvent item.

That indeed does the trick. And I would not have thought of that, so thanks.

> In the future we might introduce a way to explicitly exclude a subtree
> from an ancestor, if this is a common issue.

It seems like it would be, even in less complicated cases than mine.

> By the way, as far as I can tell addressRegion isn't a valid schema.org
> value for a Winery item. Looks like you need another item just for the
> addressRegion or something.

Yes, but I wanted to keep the example as simple as possible. In the live 
version, the item included via itemref has itemprop="location", and an 
itemtype which is set to PostalAddress.

> This is quite the elaborate vocabulary. :-/

Yes, a bit more complicated than needed, I suppose. In the end, 
including the addressRegion of the winery was hardly crucial, but I 
wanted to know if it was possible.

By contrast, everything else is necessary: a restaurant, with an event, 
hosted by a person, employed by a winery. I don't know if anyone does 
anything with events microdata right now. But if they did, they might 
search for wine events at Seattle restaurants, or search for events 
featuring a winery they like, or wines from a region they like.

I dunno. Maybe this whole thing is a waste of effort on my part.  :-/

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 15:49:06 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 23:49:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> > 
> > In the future we might introduce a way to explicitly exclude a subtree 
> > from an ancestor, if this is a common issue.
> 
> It seems like it would be, even in less complicated cases than mine.

I haven't seen many examples of it, but it's definitely something I'll 
keep an eye open for.


> By contrast, everything else is necessary: a restaurant, with an event, 
> hosted by a person, employed by a winery. I don't know if anyone does 
> anything with events microdata right now. But if they did, they might 
> search for wine events at Seattle restaurants, or search for events 
> featuring a winery they like, or wines from a region they like.
> 
> I dunno. Maybe this whole thing is a waste of effort on my part.  :-/

If you're getting something out of it (e.g. prettier search results 
snippets in search engines), then it's worth it. If not... I generally 
don't recommend solving problems that don't yet exist. :-)

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Mon Dec 10 16:06:23 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:06:23 -0800
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
Message-ID: <50C678FF.7010901@tsmchughs.com>

On 12/10/12 3:49 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
>
>> everything else is necessary: a restaurant, with an event, hosted
>> by a person, employed by a winery. I don't know if anyone does
>> anything with events microdata right now. But if they did, they
>> might search for wine events at Seattle restaurants, or search for
>> events featuring a winery they like, or wines from a region they
>> like.
>>
>> I dunno. Maybe this whole thing is a waste of effort on my part.
>
> If you're getting something out of it (e.g. prettier search results
> snippets in search engines), then it's worth it.

Only rarely -- with specific searches -- do I see rich snippets in
search results. It's so rare, that I can't duplicate those results.

> If not... I generally don't recommend solving problems that don't yet
> exist. :-)

That's certainly good advice.

I keep waiting for Google to include my rich snippets more consistently. 
I'd also think that there would be a market for restaurant searches 
where my microdata could prove useful, perhaps to find restaurants 
serving a certain cuisine. But there's no way to know if *anyone* is 
using it.

There are browser tools to help users process data (to add an event to 
their calendar, for example), but they seem to be limited to 
microformats right now. And how many people actually use such tools?

In the end, you're probably right: there's no point in doing this 
without knowing whether it's useful.

-- 
Brian Tremblay


From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Dec 10 20:44:29 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 04:44:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] microdata itemref
In-Reply-To: <50C678FF.7010901@tsmchughs.com>
References: <50C626BA.9000907@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212101900070.19796@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C63E9F.4010801@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102035040.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C6724D.6090500@tsmchughs.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1212102347230.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>
	<50C678FF.7010901@tsmchughs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212110433400.12469@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> 
> I keep waiting for Google to include my rich snippets more consistently. 
> I'd also think that there would be a market for restaurant searches 
> where my microdata could prove useful, perhaps to find restaurants 
> serving a certain cuisine. But there's no way to know if *anyone* is 
> using it.
>
> There are browser tools to help users process data (to add an event to 
> their calendar, for example), but they seem to be limited to 
> microformats right now. And how many people actually use such tools?

One thing you might be able to do to determine if anyone is using it is 
use a unique URL for some image property and see if you get any hits for 
it. It wouldn't catch all uses, but...

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Dec 13 14:48:13 2012
From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 22:48:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [html5] Why HTML5 deprecated percentage defined coords<area>?
In-Reply-To: <CADJHuJCzTj63dK6xdLHVAHvCDKCCuxfWyG8vHnHMaeiTbnwxSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADJHuJCzTj63dK6xdLHVAHvCDKCCuxfWyG8vHnHMaeiTbnwxSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1212132247090.9975@ps20323.dreamhostps.com>

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Stefano Gargiulo wrote:
>
>  https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Element/area
> 
> > *coords
> > *A set of values specifying the coordinates of the hot-spot region. The
> > number and meaning of the values depend upon the value specified for the *
> > shape* attribute. For a rect or rectangle shape, the *coords* value is
> > two x,y pairs: left, top, right, and bottom. For a circle shape, the
> > value is x,y,r where x,y is a pair specifying the center of the circle
> > and r is a value for the radius. For a poly or polygon< shape, the value
> > is a set of x,y pairs for each point in the polygon: x1,y1,x2,y2,x3,y3,and
> > so on. I
> > *In HTML4, the values are numbers of pixels or percentages, if a percent
> > sign (%) is appended; in HTML5, the values are numbers of CSS pixels.*
> 
> Why HTML5 deprecated percentage coords definition in the area tag?

Because after some 6 years, browsers still hadn't implemented it.


> In my case, I'm trying to implement a pure DOM  clickable pie-slices (not
> with Canvas or SVG just because it need to be a cross browser app).

Since percentages don't work in many browsers, while canvas and SVG do, I 
think I would recommend using canvas or SVG. :-)

(In this case, probably SVG.)

-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'


From penny.lane.mini at gmail.com  Thu Dec 13 18:45:36 2012
From: penny.lane.mini at gmail.com (Tom Fulcher)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:45:36 +1100
Subject: [html5] WOFF Fonts outlined at small sizes
Message-ID: <CALL9+95Y6pUgnjtg6NCe0KDCgNQEkD8FbMY0=B99dx+2Pm_q2g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All, I've found a funny situation with the bulk of the icons I've
tested.. browsers using the woff format (best seen in ff) will show an
outlined version of icons if the font size is below a certain amount of ems
but all other browsers work fine. I increase the font size and they then
become coloured.. see here for an example..
http://hashbang.envoyat.com/testpage.html - this will use svg in most
browsers but woff in firefox which will result in outlined icons if you
display the same page without svg icons in any browser:
http://hashbang.envoyat.com/testpage-no-svg.html

you'll notice icon number 4 is outlined until it reaches a certain font
size.

notice the build and iterate icon.. bump up the font size in firebug to
4.3em and it is fully coloured again?

Just wondering if anyone had a way around this as I need them at the
smaller size!
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From artzone_1 at comcast.net  Sun Dec 16 18:22:58 2012
From: artzone_1 at comcast.net (Mary Nelson)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:22:58 -0500
Subject: [html5] please help me get off these lists
Message-ID: <CE2DBD76-F125-42F8-8CBD-40454C166532@comcast.net>

I am dyslexic and even though I wish I could I cannot handle all the emails I am getting.  Hard to admit but true I can't find the emails I really need to find so please if your information is very technical especially script I would appreciate help getting off. Sorry for the inconvience.

From kdeamndl at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 03:03:51 2012
From: kdeamndl at gmail.com (Kevin Deamandel)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 12:03:51 +0100
Subject: [html5] please help me get off these lists
In-Reply-To: <CE2DBD76-F125-42F8-8CBD-40454C166532@comcast.net>
References: <CE2DBD76-F125-42F8-8CBD-40454C166532@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAM6rdwt3+Ywkt-85J9TNiH86XZ4iFjymbJvb+pxSgtDU71ppuA@mail.gmail.com>

send unsubscribe to help-request at lists.whatwg.org

-Kevin

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Mary Nelson <artzone_1 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I am dyslexic and even though I wish I could I cannot handle all the emails I am getting.  Hard to admit but true I can't find the emails I really need to find so please if your information is very technical especially script I would appreciate help getting off. Sorry for the inconvience.
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org


From yillkid at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 11:25:12 2012
From: yillkid at gmail.com (=?Big5?B?tsCrVLe2?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 03:25:12 +0800
Subject: [html5] SVG lineTo in a loop
Message-ID: <CAEgOEMv82HRB+xUf67=mcN5w6jLFL_x2u3HM+K-QgLrLw+s5XQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all.

I can coding as blow to draw a polygonal line:

var ctx = canvas.getContext("2d");
ctx.beginPath();

ctx.moveTo(0,126);

{ data in loop }
    ctx.lineTo(x , {{data}});
{ endfor }

ctx.stroke();
ctx.closePath();

But if I want to set a moveto one time and multi times lineto with a loop,
how I should do with SVG ?
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From cabanier at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 11:58:39 2012
From: cabanier at gmail.com (Rik Cabanier)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:58:39 -0800
Subject: [html5] SVG lineTo in a loop
In-Reply-To: <CAEgOEMv82HRB+xUf67=mcN5w6jLFL_x2u3HM+K-QgLrLw+s5XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEgOEMv82HRB+xUf67=mcN5w6jLFL_x2u3HM+K-QgLrLw+s5XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN7qDBfJwPOeb3rK6g7GBPVc70nN9Tqd8WhtyU5oEqEGVsR3w@mail.gmail.com>

This seems more like a question for www-svg.
Can you also post a jsfiddle so we can see what you're trying to accomplish?

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 11:25 AM, ??? <yillkid at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> I can coding as blow to draw a polygonal line:
>
> var ctx = canvas.getContext("2d");
> ctx.beginPath();
>
> ctx.moveTo(0,126);
>
> { data in loop }
>     ctx.lineTo(x , {{data}});
> { endfor }
>
> ctx.stroke();
> ctx.closePath();
>
> But if I want to set a moveto one time and multi times lineto with a loop,
> how I should do with SVG ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help mailing list
> Help at lists.whatwg.org
> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/help-whatwg.org
>
>
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From webmaster at tsmchughs.com  Sun Dec 30 08:55:36 2012
From: webmaster at tsmchughs.com (Brian Tremblay)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 08:55:36 -0800
Subject: [html5] the case for a <dli> element
Message-ID: <50E07208.1050807@tsmchughs.com>

I'm using <dl> markup for a restaurant menu, and have added product 
microdata markup from schema.org. Because items in a <dl> are defined 
implicitly -- <dt> element(s) followed by <dd> element(s) --  there's no 
easy way to scope them individually. What I'm left doing is adding 2 id 
attributes for each menu item, and using itemref:

http://tsmchughs.com/test/dessert

If we had a <dli> element, to scope each item in a description list, the 
markup needed to add microdata (or microformats) would be much simpler. 
Here's an example:

http://tsmchughs.com/test/dessert-test

Note that these are test examples derived from a real world example. 
Here's the dessert menu for the restaurant:

http://tsmchughs.com/menus/dessert

Because the list is short, I've added the necessary id and itemref 
attributes. But I have not for longer menus, e.g.:

http://tsmchughs.com/menus/lunch
http://tsmchughs.com/menus/dinner

The authoring costs -- maintaining 2 unique ids for each menu item -- 
are too high for anything more than a few items. Using <table> markup 
for a menu is much easier:

http://www.tenmercer.com/menu/dinner

Therefore, I think we need a <dli> element. This has come up in the 
past. If I understand correctly, the editor has declined, saying that 
the need for <dli> is only to make styling easier, so the problem should 
be solved in css. But I think the problem here is not styling, it's 
creating natural, discrete items in a description list, which might be 
used for styling, or for microdata, or perhaps for other reasons which I 
haven't thought of. Without <dli>, use of <dl> becomes much harder to 
use even though it may be the best markup choice.

-- 
Brian Tremblay