<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div>--<br><br>Regards<br><br>SteveF<br></div><a href="http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/" target="_blank">HTML 5.1</a><br></div>
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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 14:04:25 -0700<br>
From: Micky Hulse <<a href="mailto:mickyhulse.lists@gmail.com" target="_blank">mickyhulse.lists@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:help@lists.whatwg.org" target="_blank">help@lists.whatwg.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:help@lists.whatwg.org" target="_blank">help@lists.whatwg.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [html5] Using <section> and <h1> ? Theoretical?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CALri7MnCrmUWGvW1ca66ZbpZn_DUFWcQV-bGOFvb5LQAHQdDAg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CALri7MnCrmUWGvW1ca66ZbpZn_DUFWcQV-bGOFvb5LQAHQdDAg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
Interesting conversation.<br>
<br>
Honestly, I'm still trying to soak all of this in.<br>
<br>
<my $0.0000002><br>
<br>
In terms of HTML5 sections, etc., I understand (now) why one would<br>
choose to use an HTML4 heading approach (i.e., one <h1> per page,<br>
etc.).<br>
<br>
With that said, I'm concerned that W3C's new "authoring advice" will<br>
make it so the HTML5 "vision" (or parts of it, as I see it) never<br>
comes to fruition.<br>
<br></blockquote><div>THe W3C HTML spec does not say don't use sections as per the outline, it just strongly encourages the use of h1-h6 to reflect outline depth in conjunction with sections:</div><div><br></div><div>
"<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:medium">Sections may contain headings of any </span>rank<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:medium">, and authors are strongly encouraged to use headings of the appropriate </span>rank<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:medium"> for the section's nesting level."</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:medium"><br></span></div><div>This approach is both forward and backward compatible as Ian has pointed out.</div><div> this code produces exactly the same HTML5 outline as replacing the h2-h6 with h1</div>
</div></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><section><h2>heading text... </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">
<section><h3>heading text... </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> <section><h4>heading text... </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> <section><h5>heading text... </div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> <section><h6>heading text... </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> </section></div></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
</section></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> </section></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"></section></div><div class="gmail_quote"></section></div>
</div></blockquote><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>The difference being that the levels are correctly conveyed by user agents to users using h1-h6 where as using only h1 they are not</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
Steve, in reference to your "bringing it in line with reality" comment:<br>
<br>
I'm probably not thinking clearly, but isn't the point of an<br>
unfinished spec to be more forward-thinking? Why should an unfinished<br>
spec conform to software and technology that's lagging behind in terms<br>
of accepting a new way of doing things?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>when a new feature is initially specced that is indeed the case, the document outline has been in the spec for years and we are no closer to getting it implemented. </div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Shouldn't SEO tools/bots and screen readers conform to the new spec,<br>
not the other way around?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>browsers need to conform to the requirements spec for the outline to convey the semantics it purports to. To date as I have pointed out browser implementers have shown no great interest in implementing. I hope in future that will change. To that end I have opened bugs on fitrfox/webkit/IE and blink [1] and have been talking with implementers directly in whatever forums available.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
in <br>
Should I not be concerned that the W3C's decision to ignore the<br>
outliner will make it so the <section>/<h1> technique becomes a thing<br>
of the past?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The W3C spec does not ignore the outline, as Ian has pointed out, much of the W3C HTML spec is the same as the Whatwg spec. In the case of the implementer requirements and definition of the algorithm there is no difference. </div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[1]</div>
<div><br></div><div><ul style="border:0px;margin:0px 0px 0px 1.5em;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;list-style:square;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Georgia,'Bitstream Charter',serif;font-size:16px;line-height:24px">
<li style="background-color:transparent;border:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline"><a href="https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=365070" style="background-color:transparent;border:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(116,51,153)" target="_blank">expose (heading) level in acc layer based on heading elements outline depth – chrome bug</a></li>
<li style="background-color:transparent;border:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline"><a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=998590" style="background-color:transparent;border:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(116,51,153)" target="_blank">expose heading level in acc layer based on outline depth not heading numeric value – Firefox bug</a></li>
<li style="background-color:transparent;border:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline"><a href="https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131920" style="background-color:transparent;border:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(116,51,153)" target="_blank">AX: expose (heading) level based on heading elements outline depth – Webkit bug</a></li>
<li style="background-color:transparent;border:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline"><a href="http://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/details/856898/expose-output-of-html5-outline-algorithm-as-a-dom-method" style="background-color:transparent;border:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(116,51,153)" target="_blank">expose output of html5 outline algorithm as a DOM method – IE bug</a></li>
</ul></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
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