<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Nov 27, 2006, at 8:49 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN><figure></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN><img ...></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN><legend> ... </legend></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></figure></FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV>Ian, thank you -- this is simple, clear, and functional. Ideally (as several people have pointed out) the element would be called "caption," but I'm content to accept your explanation of why that won't work. "Legend" is sufficiently intuitive for the typical person using HTML, as is "figure." </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Regarding credit vs. caption,</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This one in particular:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR style=""></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "><A href="http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,1806799,00.html">http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,1806799,00.html</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR style=""></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">...suggests we may want to have multiple <legend> elements per <figure>, </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to allow for a caption and photo credit to be given. What do people think? </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Would some other way of inline giving photo credit metadata be better?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Yes, I think a separate element for credit would be great. The caption and credit are functionally different. A caption tells the reader why an image has been included in the page; a credit tells where it came from. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I've done a quick survey this morning of magazines and textbooks around the office, and confirmed my suspicion that typically, caption and credit are displayed and styled separately. I think they would be more often separated on the web if average web design was as careful and competent as average print design. They look the same on the Guardian's website, but most often, the caption is small sans-serif text placed directly under or beside the photo with little margin, and the caption is in larger text slightly farther below the image. If the credit is in the same visual block with the caption, it's often presented in a different font. The photo on this page, rather unfortunately, shows both designs:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><A href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6545249">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6545249</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Obviously, styling doesn't determine semantics, but if the design is thoughtful styling does reflect semantics, and the stylistic conventions help readers to process the caption and credit separately as they read. If practical, the same assistance ought to be available to non-sighted readers. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>When there are several images on a page, an author might wish to put all of the photo credits at the bottom so as not to clutter up the presentation unduly, but if the credit were a separate element, that could be done with scripting while leaving the semantics intact.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Would the credit element, whatever it is called, be block or inline? Semantically I don't believe it makes much difference. I suppose I'd recommend that it be an inline element inside the <legend>, because then with CSS I could declare it to be display: block and pull it out, whereas if it's a block-level element, there's no easy way to put it back inside the legend.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><DIV><DIV>On Nov 28, 2006, at 2:56 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 01:15 -0500, fantasai wrote:</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; ">I'd suggest using <address>, e.g.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR style=""></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "> <figure></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "> <img></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "> <address>Photo by Mariel</address></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "> </figure></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR style=""></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "> <figure></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "> <img></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "> <caption>Carcassonne</caption></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "> <address>Photo by Mariel</address></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "> </figure></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR style=""></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Mere attribution is not "contact information". If all attributions</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">included a link to the creator's or copyright holder's webpage, or an</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">email address, that would work, but there's no guarantee they will. Such</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">usage dilutes the meaning of <address/>.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I agree; attribution is not contact information, though it may include contact information. Attribution may contain the following:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV> - name of creator/photographer</DIV><DIV> - copyright date</DIV><DIV> - copyright holder</DIV><DIV> - name of provider (such as "photo courtesy of..." or simply "Getty Images" or "Associated Press")</DIV><DIV> - link to creator or provider's home page</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Is licensing information part of the credit? The simple "All Rights Reserved" is common, but what about a link to a Creative Commons or other license? What about the Creative Commons logo? Can the legend or credit of a figure contain another image? </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Finally, the captions for images in the content management system I designed and use also include a link to a full database record of the image -- but that is, I guess, part of a credit rather than of a caption, and such usage isn't common. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>-----</DIV><DIV>David Walbert </DIV><DIV>LEARN NC, UNC-Chapel Hill</DIV><DIV><A href="mailto:dwalbert@learnnc.org">dwalbert@learnnc.org</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></BODY></HTML>