<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Feb 9, 2007, at 8:52 AM, Mikko Rantalainen wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">David Latapie wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 12:58:35 +0200, Mikko Rantalainen wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">ignore and is usually orthogonal to the rest of the content. <small> is something you usually skip but you must be aware of the content (e.g. a copyright or license boilerplate) - the key here is that the content is often repeated but if you have read it *once*, then you may skip it later.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">So, if I understanf you correctly, <small> is short for "important legalse-like SMALL-print" and not just "SMALL-text">, right?</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">That's pretty much what the current WHATWG spec says:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-small">http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-small</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The latest HTML specification of small element (<A href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#h-15.2.1">http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#h-15.2.1</A>) only says</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"15.2.1 Font style elements: the TT, I, B, BIG, SMALL, STRIKE, S, and U elements" and "SMALL: Renders text in a 'small' font". So either <small> has no semantics at all (and should be dropped) or it has semantics defined by WHATWG (which seems to describe the current usage in the wild).</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><DIV>Logically, if <small> represents "small print" legalese, I agree that it is not de-emphasized. (That kind of small print is often small precisely because it IS important, and the authors would probably rather you not read it!) </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>However, looking at the three examples in the spec, I would question the value of the <small> element.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>___</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; ">First example: the footer contains contact information and a copyright.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><footer></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> <address></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> For more details, contact</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> <a href="<A href="mailto:js@example.com">mailto:js@example.com</A>">John Smith</a>.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </address></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> <p><small>© copyright 2038 Example Corp.</small></p></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "></footer></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Here, <small> is a copyright notice. In HTML 5 I'd use <p class="license"> and style it appropriately, since "license" is now a restricted semantic class.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">In this second example, the small element is used for a side comment.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p>Example Corp today announced record profits for the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">second quarter <small>(Full Disclosure: Foo News is a subsidiary of</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Example Corp)</small>, leading to speculation about a third quarter</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">merger with Demo Group.</p></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This side comment is already de-emphasized, because it is in parentheses -- the standard print convention (in English, at least) for de-emphasizing text within the flow of other text. Since there is already a typographical marker of de-emphasis, the <small> tag would have added value only to a machine (if it would even then), and if I wanted text to appear in parentheses I wouldn't also wrap it in a tag -- just as I'd use either quotation marks or the <q> tag, but not both. In this case the parentheses and <small> tag are not technically redundant, but they're awfully close. </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">In this last example, the small element is marked as being important small print.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p><strong><small>Continued use of this service will result in a kiss.</small></strong></p></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV>Since there's no context given, I can't comment. But if it's emphasized I'm not sure why anyone would want it to appear as "small print." That would, visually, de-emphasize it. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>___</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I would also ask whether a semantic element for "small print" legal text has real practical value. In each of these examples, it is obvious from the text or context that what's enclosed in the <small> tag is legal text or some kind of disclaimer. Would there ever be a need for legal text to be findable by machine? If so, wouldn't the text of a license agreement have to be all in <small> text, and would anyone ever actually do that? Does the "Full discloser" count as legal text for a machine's purposes? </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>And finally, I haven't used <small> since maybe 1998 -- in part because once I started learning about web standards I quit using anything that sounded purely presentational. Even if <small> has semantics, it sounds from the name like it is purely presentational. I expect I'm not alone in making that (incorrect) assumption. (Most people don't actually read the entire specification.)</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I admit I don't know how <small> is used in the wild -- can anyone enlighten me? If the examples in the spec are typical, I'd suggest that some kind of microformat for legal text might be more appropriate than a "small print" element.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>_____</DIV><DIV>David Walbert</DIV><DIV>LEARN NC, UNC-Chapel Hill</DIV><DIV><A href="mailto:dwalbert@learnnc.org">dwalbert@learnnc.org</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>