<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Mar 11, 2007, at 4:39 AM, Mihai Sucan wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">It's false to assume the UA developers can happily say "now we'll parse HTML5, lets use our new HTML5 parser". No, this won't happen. Here's why: the UA cannot be sure that the document is *really* HTML 5. </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Browsers don't read DTDs. They wouldn't read the link rel="recommedation" src="url-to-html-document". It would exist to commit the author of the document to a certain recommendation, and, in the future, let other authors know what the author was working with. Like DTDs but for humans instead of programs. The browsers would continue to do whatever they feel like they need to do to render the content.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">So, I ask you: what use is then a DTD, a version attribute, or any indication that the document is written with HTML5 in mind? It's practically useless. The UAs will completely ignore it, if it would exist (at least for the moment - the future is still subject to change :) ).</BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Web standards are about committing to ideals. It would serve the purpose of committing the author to a certain ideal (e.g. WHATWG's HTML 5 standards) and, in the future, let other authors know what the author was intending to do. I don't see this as differing much from link rel="author" and link rel="license". [1] It'd be an optional tag for those of us who want to let people know exactly what we were trying to do with the document.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">I think it's too early to talk about W3C HTML5 versus WHATWG HTML5. We shall wait and see.</BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>Some people don't save money in the event that they get laid off from their job. All I'm saying is that a contingency plan won't hurt anything. We have a competing standard now. The fact that the WHATWG exists suggest that we could have more competing standards. Before, it was OK to act as though the WHAT HTML 5 was the only HTML 5 because it was the only HTML 5. By the time W3C finishes their recommendation, there will be two HTML 5s. I will be very surprised if W3C and WHAT create two completely compatible recommendations. I'm worried that the new browser wars to be recommendation wars... Things are suddenly different now than they were before. Talking about it now before it is a problem sure beats having to hack around it after it is a problem (see the original quirksmode switch and the fact that IE team now wants another quirksmode switch).</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">I don't remember them *asking* a WG for such solutions. This is only a proposal made by the initial author of the thread.</BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Microsoft didn't ask a standards group for a solution. They asked developers for another standards mode opt-in. [2] Presumably, the opt-in would be something in one of the new recommendations that is different from HTML 4. That would fall on WHAT WG and W3C WG. The header I suggested would put it in the hands of IE instead of in the hands of a specification. Then it isn't about the specification. It's about some proprietary thing Microsoft needs for their browser to work better for us. All they want is some way to tell their browser to use super-standards mode. There really is no reason to put this switch in HTML 5. The header could be called "X-IE-SUPER-STANDARDS-MODE: On;" to solve the problem. My example was written how it was before ("X-STANDARDS-MODE: HTML5") to give Microsoft a little more leeway if they needed yet another switch in the future (as some on this list feel they may). It really doesn't matter what the header is. What matters is that it means WHAT doesn't need to add some proprietary thing to their recommendation to fix IE's problems.</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>[1] <A href="http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#linkTypes">http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#linkTypes</A><DIV>[2] http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=cccd4aa02a3993ab06e56af731346f78.2006940 or http://us.dl1.yimg.com/download.yahoo.com/dl/ydn/yui/theater/browserwars-20070228.m4v (18:49 is where Chris Wilson actually says the line in question; the monologue that leads to the question starts around 15:00 )<BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>----------------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV>Robert <http://robertdot.org></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>