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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If there is a character
set that sports both, it must be used to put down some human language. My
point there is no language that could make use of this distinction by having both
ü and &utrema;. There are languages that use ü and
theoretically there could be ones that use &utrema;, although I do not know
of any valid case (I consider the French case invalid).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Chëërs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Chrïs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> whatwg-bounces@lists.whatwg.org
[mailto:whatwg-bounces@lists.whatwg.org] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Sander<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 23, 2007 2:59
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Kristof Zelechovski;
whatwg@whatwg.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [whatwg] Entity
parsing</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I hadn't thought of that one ;-) (in Dutch there
are no native words with umlauts, only some of German or Scandinavian descent).<br>
My question was about char-sets that contain both a trema version and a
(seperate) umlaut version of the same character. Are there any?<br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
Sander<br>
<br>
<br>
Kristof Zelechovski schreef: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Only the vowel U can have either but I have not seen a valid example of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>&utrema;. The orthography "ambigüe" has recently been changed to "ambiguë"<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>for consistency. Polish "nauka" (science) and German "beurteilen" would<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>make good candidates but the national rules of orthography do not allow this<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>distinction because Slavic languages do not have diphthongs except in<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>borrowed words and it would cause ambiguity in German (cf. "geübt").<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>(Incidentally, this leads to bad pronunciation often encountered even in<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Polish media.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Chris<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: Sander [<a
href="mailto:html5@zoid.nl">mailto:html5@zoid.nl</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:26 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To: Kristof Zelechovski<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Subject: Re: [whatwg] Entity parsing<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Kristof Zelechovski schreef:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>A dieresis is not an umlaut so I have to bite my tongue each time I write<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>or<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>read nonsense like ï. It feels like lying. Umlaut means "mixed", a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>dieresis means "standalone". Those are very different things, and "I" can<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>never gets mixed so there is no ambiguïty. Since "umlaut" is borrowed<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>from<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>German, I can see no problem in borrowing "tréma" from French. I<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>personally<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>prefer "&itrema;" to "&idier;" because of readability, but I would not<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>insist on that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"In professional typography, umlaut dots are usually a bit closer to the <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>letter's body than the dots of the trema. In handwriting, however, no <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>distinction is visible between the two. This is also true for most <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>computer fonts and encodings."<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>[<a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umlaut_(diacritic)">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umlaut_(diacritic)</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Are there any char-sets that have both umlaut and trema variations of <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>characters? If so, both entities could exist.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Sander<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>PS: I'd go for "&itrema;" instead of "&idier;" as well as the term <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"trema" is also the one that's used in Dutch.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></div>
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