<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>Thanks, I'm happy to be here. :)<br><br>Thanks for a clear explanation of the irrelevant attribute. If you see the other thread about this, I think we've all now agreed that the purpose for the attribute makes sense, but the name is another story. It's difficult to spell for most people and really gives the wrong impression of the content. The suggestion was made to rename it "ignore", which I think makes more sense.<br><br>As there is also another thread going on about
<section/>, I don't want to repeat all of my comments here, but suffice to say that I don't see why I'd ever use <section/> when I get implicit sections by using <hn/> elements. Writers are used to headings
indicating sections, and don't really think of a section as anything on its own. I can understand the use of <article/> as semantically indicating that the area contains information rather than markup, but I think <section/> is overkill.<br><br>I understand your reasoning for the <aside/> element, perhaps this is another element that is suffering from the wrong name. Most of web developers have no idea what an aside is let alone when to use one. I know that <acronym/> was removed because it confused web developers. Given that this is the same audience, the ones who couldn't figure out the difference between an acronym and an abbreviation, do you really think that <aside/> will get used? Perhaps it would better be named <callout/>?<br><br>-Nicholas<br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Smylers <Smylers@stripey.com><br>To:
whatwg@lists.whatwg.org<br>Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:02:24 AM<br>Subject: Re: [whatwg] Thoughts on HTML 5<br><br>
<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:html@nczonline.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:html@nczonline.net">html@nczonline.net</a>
writes:<br><br>>
I
had
posted
this
on
my
personal
blog:<br>>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://nczonline.net/blog/2008/2/28/thoughts_on_html_5">http://nczonline.net/blog/2008/2/28/thoughts_on_html_5</a>.
Ian
requested<br>>
I
join
the
mailing
list
to
continue
the
discussion,
so
here
it
is:<br><br>Hi
there
Nicholas.
Welcome
to
the
list,
and
thanks
for
your
comments.<br>I'll
try
to
explain
the
purpose
of
elements
that
you
are
questioning.<br>Where
I've
snipped
a
point
you
made
that's
generally
because
I<br>agree
with
you
and
have
nothing
further
to
add.<br><br>>
*
the
irrelevant
attribute
...
I
can't
imagine
ever
using
it.<br><br>That's
OK
--
it
isn't
necessary
for
every
author
to
use
every
element!<br>It's
purpose
is
for
use
on
interactive
pages,
where
some
things
only<br>appear
(or
disappear),
using
JavaScript,
after
the
user
has
done<br>something.<br><br>>
Lachlan
had
commented
that
"irrelevant"
could
be
changed
dynamically<br>>
to
indicate
parts
of
an
application
that
may
be
relevant
only
during<br>>
particular
points
in
time.<br><br>For
example
think
of
an
error
message
which
appears
if
the
user
tries
to<br>submit
invalid
input:
when
the
page
initially
loads
the
error
message<br>isn't
relevant
(no
error
has
yet
occurred),
but
it's
in
the
document
so<br>that
it's
there
if
needed.
At
that
point
the
script
that's
detected
the<br>error
condition
can
set
irrelevant
to
false
on
the
error
message.<br><br>>
I
don't
see
how
this
is
any
different
from
hiding
content
that
isn't<br>>
necessary.<br><br>It
_isn't_
different
from
that;
it's
exactly
that!
It's
providing
a<br>mechanism
for
doing
precisely
that
--
in
HTML
4
there
isn't
a
way
of<br>marking
up
an
element
as
being
hidden.<br><br>>
The
spec
says,
"When
specified
on
an
element,
it
indicates
that
the<br>>
element
is
not
yet,
or
is
no
longer,
relevant.
User
agents
should<br>>
not
render
elements
that
have
the
irrelevant
attribute
specified."<br>>
If
it's
not
relevant,
why
is
it
in
the
page
in
the
first
place?<br><br>So
that
it
can
become
relevant
in
response
to
events.<br><br>>
*
I'm
not
sure
what
the
<section/>
element
offers
over
the
<div/><br>>
element.
I
thought
the
purpose
of
the
<div/>
was
to
indicate
a<br>>
section
of
the
page.
If
there's
not
a
clear
distinction
between<br>>
these
elements,
I
don't
see
the
need
for
a
second
one.<br><br><div>
is
semantically
neutral;
it
just
means
that
there's
a
division<br>(the
author
needed
a
block
element)
but
doesn't
give
a
reason
for
it
--<br>similarly
to
how
<span>
merely
denotes
a
run
of
text
without
giving
a<br>reason.<br><br>In
HTML
4
it's
rare
to
need
to
resort
to
<span>,
because
there
are
many<br>other
elements
for
denoting
a
span
of
text
for
a
particular
purpose<br>(<em>,
<cite>,
<dfn>,
etc).<br><br>Along
similar
lines
HTML
5
provides
a
block
elements
for
specific<br>purposes,
so
that
different
sorts
of
blocks
can
be
marked
up<br>differently.
<section>
is
one
of
those.<br><br>A
<section>
is
not
merely
any
block
division
that
the
author
needed
to<br>make
on
the
page
(probably
to
hang
some
styles
off),
but
is
specifically<br>a
section
(or
subsection)
of
a
document.<br><br>For
example
consider
a
webpage
with
this
design:<br><br>*
a
header
with
the
site's
name
and
logo
and
so
on<br>*
a
left
column
with
navigation
links<br>*
the
main
page
content
(what
the
reader
has
come
here
to
read)
in
the<br>
middle;
this
is
quite
long,
and
has
subheadings
at
various
points<br>*
a
right
column
('sidebar')
with
related
information<br><br>In
HTML
4
that
would
likely
be
marked
up
with
lots
of
<div>s
(or
a<br>table).
HTML
5
has
meaningful
elements
for
each
of
those
--
<header>,<br><nav>,
<article>,
and
<aside>.<br><br>Further,
<article>
can
be
split
into
<section>s.
Possibly
the
sidebar<br>would
have
sections
too.
Note
that
because
of
how
HTML
5
infers<br>sections
from
headings
it
isn't
necessary
to
include
<section>
tags
to<br>get
a
section;
just
using
<h1>,
<h2>,
<h3>,
etc
at
the
appropriate
level<br>will
achieve
the
same
effect.
But
sometimes
explicitly
marking
sections<br>is
easier.<br><br>For
an
example
of
a
document
which
clearly
has
lots
of
sections
and<br>subsections
see
the
HTML
5
spec
itself!<br><br>>
*
I'm
a
bit
unsure
of
the
<article/>
element.
As
with
<section/>,
it<br>>
seems
only
vaguely
different
from
<div/><br><br>Many
HTML
5
pages
will
have
just
one
<article>
(whereas
in
the
HTML
4<br>equivalent
it
would
be
necessary
for
that
block
to
be
just
one
of<br>several
<div>s
on
the
page).
That
will
enable
user-agents
to
know
the<br>'main
purpose'
of
a
page.
In
particular
text-based
and
speaking<br>browsers
can
offer
to
jump
straight
to
it
(something
which
authors
have<br>to
code
by
hand
on
each
page
in
HTML
4).<br><br>>
*
The
<aside/>
element
really
pushes
the
boundaries
of
marking
up<br>>
literary
devices.
...
Short
asides
are
typically
indicated
by<br>>
parentheses
and
I
don't
see
any
reason
not
to
keep
doing
that<br>>
(seriously).<br><br>Indeed,
parens
would
still
be
the
best
thing
to
do
there.
If
no
mark-up<br>is
needed
then
don't
bother
with
any.
But
think
of
sidebars:
books<br>often
have
'boxes'
out
of
the
main
flow
of
text
describing
a
separate<br>point.
These
sorts
of
asides
obviously
need
some
mark-up,
and
<aside><br>would
be
appropriate
to
use
there.<br><br>>
*
The
<dfn/>
is
another
that
stresses
the
understanding
of
grammatical<br>>
structure
for
web
developers.
The
intent
is
to
designate
the
defining<br>>
instance
of
a
term,
abberviation,
or
acronym.
Does
that
make
sense
to<br>>
you?<br><br>So
far
as
I
can
tell
it's
defined
in
the
way
that
I've
always
been
using<br>it
in
HTML
4
anyway.<br><br>Documents
which
introduce
a
new
term
often
italicize
or
embolden
that<br>term;
the
surrounding
sentence
(or
whatever)
defines
it.
Obviously
in<br>order
for
this
to
happen
this
defining
instance
of
the
term
needs
to
be<br>marked
up
in
some
way;
<dfn>
is
the
element
to
use
for
that.<br><br>>
*
Speaking
of
confusing,
I've
read
the
section
about
the
<meter/><br>>
element
five
times
now
and
still
have
no
idea
what
it's
used
for.<br><br>See
this
list
of
web
pages
has
a
little
bar
showing
PageRank
to
the
left<br>of
each
one:<br><br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/News_and_Media/Newspapers/">http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/News_and_Media/Newspapers/</a><br><br>That
PageRank
indicator
could
be
a
<meter>
--
it's
indicating
a<br>proportion
of
a
whole.<br><br>I
hope
that
helps.
Cheers.<br><br>Smylers<br><br></div><br></div></div>Hi Smylers,<br><br>
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