<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2009/2/7 Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com">bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">On 7/2/09 18:51, Giovanni Campagna wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
So the rendering section imposes *no* requirements on HTML5<br>
conforming user agents, therefore the spec is not "constraining the<br>
implementation of HTML5 on that of XBL2".<br>
<br>
<br>
Yes, but UA that don't follow that set of CSS rules are not<br>
interoperable with UA that follow, ie scripts must detect what<br>
properties are ignored or defaulted.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
HTML5 conforming UAs do not have to implement CSS or CSSOM.<br>
<br>
CSSOM-implementing UAs do not have to do express all styling with CSS properties.<br>
<br>
When they do, you can query for those properties via the CSSOM.<br><div class="Ih2E3d"></div></blockquote><div><br>Yes, but what properties should I query for? Binding, behaviour, appearance, border, color, font, all in once? And what should their values be?<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="Ih2E3d">
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Furthermore, user agents are free to use any method they like to<br>
mimic the suggested rendering, including CSS3 UI where applicable.<br>
They don't have to use BE CSS at all.<br>
<br>
They're "expected" to use CSS, and I expect that, according to html5,<br>
"button { binding: initial; }" makes it like a <span>.<br>
</blockquote>
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Is text I quoted not clear that the word "expected" is chosen precisely to make it clear that these are _not_ normative requirements? If so, could you suggest modifications to the text to make it even clearer?<div class="Ih2E3d">
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<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
If this is not obvious from the text, perhaps you would like to<br>
suggest a change to the text that would make it clearer?<br>
<br>
I don't agree with rendering being "optional". If interoperability is so<br>
important (and it is), rendering should be normative.<br>
</blockquote>
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How does that follow?</blockquote><div><br>If <input type="submit"> in some UA is rendered with all properties set to initial, not only it does not express the semantic of a button, but it may be difficult for a user to actually recognize it as a button and eventually click it. In that case I, as the author, may need to manually set { appearance:push-button; content:attr(value,string,"Send"); } in order to have my form submitted.<br>
Try this example (in Firefox or Safari):<br>data:text/html,<style>label { position:fixed; top:-1em; border:1px solid black; } label input { -moz-appearance:none; -webkit-appearance:none; border:none; width:auto; } input[type=submit] { -moz-appearance:none; -webkit-appearance:none; background-color:transparent; border:none; }</style><form action="<a href="http://www.google.com/search">http://www.google.com/search</a>" method="get"><label>Search: <input type="text" value="" name="q"></label><input type=submit value="Go"><br>
<br>Imagine that was the UA default stylesheet instead of an author stylesheet and you may see what interoperability means with web application look and feel.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>
And what do you mean by "rendering should be normative"?<br>
<br>
Are you suggesting, for example, that HTML5 should mandate unvisited links be blue and underlined in the screen medium unless set otherwise by a publisher stylesheet? That would prevent UAs providing a default presentation of semantic HTML that suits the end-user!<br>
<br>
Note that would prevent UAs complying with W3C's user-agent accessibility guidelines:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-USERAGENT/guidelines.html#gl-user-control-styles" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-USERAGENT/guidelines.html#gl-user-control-styles</a></blockquote><div><br>HTML5 should not mandate the UA present <a>s in blue, but it should mandate the UA present <a>s like links (appearance:hyperlink). The color of course is a matter of visual themes and platform.<br>
An other example: HTML5 should mandate <button> displayed with appearance:push-button; even if the UA doesn't support CSS.<br>Also compare it to the normative style sheet for XHTML2 [1]: it does not require CSS, but it does require that some look and feel (very basic actually) is enforced to express the semantics of elements.<br>
Obviously this does not relate in any way with user preferences, here we talk about UA defaults.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
--<br><font color="#888888">
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis<br>
</font></blockquote><div><br>Giovanni<br><br>[1] <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml2-style.html#a_stylesheet">http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml2-style.html#a_stylesheet</a> <br></div></div><br>