[html5] Trying to help, please help me

Keryx Web webmaster at keryx.se
Sun Jun 28 10:45:59 PDT 2009

On 2009-06-27 20:47, Simon Pieters wrote:
 > On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:22:39 +0200, Keryx Web <webmaster at keryx.se> wrote:
 >> http://keryx.se/resources/html-elements/
 > <base> is now allowed in XHTML5 too.

Missed that. Thank you.

 > Maybe it would make sense to have one column for HTML5 and one for 

Maybe for my next *major* update.

 > <basefont> is deprecated in HTML4.


 > <![CDATA[ ]]> is allowed in HTML5 but only in SVG and MathML contexts.

Thats why it is marked "s" = "sometimes".

 > <eventsource> was dropped.

I thought it just moved to a separate spec?

Note to self: "Must pay better attention!"

 > (X)HTML5 doesn't have <rbc>, <rtc>, <rb>.

OK. I just took for granted that it would include all ruby markup from 
XHTML 1.1. And that the rest just wasn't spec'd yet. Has this been 
discussed? Where?

(I have not got time to follow every conversation, so sometimes I miss 
stuff. That's why I am asking for help ;-) )

 > The "?" label seems unused.

Yes. Since my last revision it is.

 > I guess <html>, <listing>, <xmp> should be labeled "B".

Will fix.

 > <noscript>,
 > <ins>, <del>, <meter>, <progress>, <keygen>, <object>, <canvas>,
 > <embed>, <applet> are "I".

Will fix.

 > <table> is marked "B" but is not
 > display:block. I guess none of the frameset-related elements should have
 > "B", since framesets can't be expressed with CSS.

Perhaps I should be more clear about what I mean with "blockish"...

This table is goes back more than a few years and is the result of 
talking to my students. It is based on my personal quick way of 
explaining this to complete newbies:

1. Block elements will cause line breaks and must be floated or 
positioned in order to have contents on their sides.

2. Inline elements may never contain block elements.

Both rules apply to table.

Anyway, I think it is probably wise to be more precise. I will change 
it. Today I also teach CSS from day one, making it more clear what I 
mean anyway.

 > The <ruby>-related
 > elements also have special values for 'display'. I'm not sure about
 > <layer> and <nolayer> -- I think they're just unknown (and hence inline)
 > in browsers these days.

I thought they were ignored completely...? At least they should be, IMHO.

 > <figure> is an "N" element.


 > <isindex> is a bit weird since the parser
 > expands it into <form>...<input>.

Weird indeed, but an input control will be shown. Sounds replaced to me!

 > <bb> can be either normal or replaced,
 > I think.

Anyone who can conform this?

 > I think <details> is always "N".

Anyone who can conform this?

 > <command> is "I".

I thought some control would be shown. in my rightmost column I have 
said tha "Button, radiobutton or checkbox" will be shown.

 > HTML 5
 > doesn't say that <meter> or <progress> are replaced elements.

That was deduction from my part. How else would they display if not 
through some widget?

 > <img> and
 > <object> can be either "R" or "N".

You mean, usually "R", but "N" when providing text-fallback?

 > <audio> can be either "R" or "I". The
 > "I" for <source> is left-aligned while the others are centered.

Sounds like it's too complex to describe with just one letter...

 > <map> is
 > a normal inline element.

As indeed it is in my table.

 > I wouldn't say <frameset> is an "N" -- maybe
 > leave the cell empty. Same for <frame>.

Sounds reasonable. Will change.

 > I think <xml> is invisible in IE.

A quick test proves this to be the case.

 >> It now has an HTML 5 doctype and some experimental CSS transformations
 >> (Only for the Fox 3.5 so far).
 > Nice. Hixie: some tables in the spec could benefit from the same styling.

It is a very fragile technique that requires fixed widths for table 
columns and is almost impossible to get pixel perfect right.

I think it is a very clear use case for something that should be very 
easy to accomplish in CSS, and I have sent an e-mail to the CSS WG. So 
far I have received no answer from anyone, though.

Keryx Web (Lars Gunther)

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