[html5] Template questions...
mickyhulse.lists at gmail.com
Mon May 16 14:08:19 PDT 2011
DOH, I forgot to "reply to all".
Hi Jukka! Thank you for the help, I really appreciate it. :)
See my replies inline below.
On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 11:16 PM, Jukka K. Korpela
<jukka.k.korpela at kolumbus.fi> wrote:
> It lacks a !DOCTYPE and the <title> element. (It is apparently meant to be a
> template, so it should surely be a complete template.)
DOH! Sorry about that! :D
I guess I was trying to avoid any confusion by leaving out the
When I get home later tonight I will fork Ricardo's version and
include the missing bits. :)
Sorry about that.
> Many people recommend the use of start and end tags for <html>, <head>, and
> <body> elements. This is largely a matter of style. But I think there is
> almost always a reason to use the <html> tag, so that you can put a lang
> attribute there.
Definitely! I did not realize that much of that could be left out.
Hehe, I am not sure if I could even force myself to leave out <html>,
<head> and <body>!
>> 1. What do you think about the usage of the H1? In this case, is it a
>> problem to have multiple per page?
> Using <h1> inside <article> effectively lowers its rank with respect to the
> page as a whole. Though such usage is well-defined and allowed in HTML5, its
> main purpose is to allow inclusing of articles into a document without
> changing their heading markup. This is fine and useful in the long run, but
Ahh, that's why I was asking actually... It would make templating via
my CMS a little easier if I could re-use the same HTML markup from the
"permalink" page (which would be an H1 tag).
> it's just pointlessly risky at present. Current browsers, assistive software
> etc. will blindly treat <h1> as rank 1 heading, without paying attention to
> its appearing inside <article>. You might make them _appear_ as lower-rank
> headings, if you use carefully crafted CSS (and your stylesheet actually
> gets applied), but it's just an indirect way of partially achieving
> something that is best achieved directly.
I think this is where one would say "I can't wait for HTML5 to be the norm".
For now, I think I would like to markup my pages with the future in
mind, but I definitely don't want to thumb my nose at the present.
> So it would be safer to write, say,
> <h1>Article title<br>
Ooooh, I like that! Seems like a good spot to use <small>.
I am also happy to see that you included <time> in the <hgroup>. I was
under the assumption that <hgroup> could only contain H* tags. I am
glad to see that other tags can be put in there too.
Just out of curiosity, what are you thoughts about using <hgroup> when
there is only one <H*> tag?
For some reason the name "hgroup" makes me think "only headings and
> Some people probably question the use of <br> here (is it really a line
> break in the content itself - well, it's structural division if division of
> present) and should render reasonably even without CSS, and could be styled
> with CSS easily, without unnecessarily complicated selectors.
I dig your example for sure.
I like you point about "render reasonably even without CSS".
When developing HTML/CSS, I usually like to turn off CSS to see how
things look... In the code example, from my first post, the
block-level <a> was looking pretty horrid when styles were disabled.
Before I contacted this list, I was experimenting with something like
this (code abbreviated for sake of example):
<a><time>...</time> / <strong>TITLE</strong> /
Like your example, the above renders nicely when CSS is disabled. Of
course, the <h*> would vary depending on the page (index page listing
articles and/or permalink page).
>> 2. Can I use<hgroup> within an<a> tag?
> Yes, but should you
Good question. Probably not. :D
>> 3. Thoughts on wrapping time with an H3?
> In practice, it makes the time notation a 3rd-rank heading on current
> of the heading as a whole (heading group). But as a practical move... it
> means taking risks with little if anything that you could possibly win.
I like they way you think! Thanks for the feedback. :)
> the semantically empty <div>. While that's OK in the long run, well, the run
> _is_ going to be long...
Ha! I personally can't wait!
The more I use HTML5, the more I love it.
HTML5 is definitely a change in thinking for me from HTML4... There's
lots more to think about, semantically, when sculpting a page; this is
like a double-edged sword for a perfectionist like me!
> However, you could use <p> instead of <div> here, as this seems to be the
> HTML5 way in matters like this. And it only costs setting margin: 0 for the
> <time> elements directly. I don't think you need to be more cross-browser
> than that, in such issues, as modern browsers let you style <time> directly.
I have actually been playing around with Modernizr, so, like you say,
I might just style the time directly.
Thanks so much for the help Jukka (and everyone), I really appreciate it!!!!
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