[whatwg] Suggestion for Menus in Web Forms 2.0
ian at hixie.ch
Tue Nov 16 07:16:03 PST 2004
On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Matthew Thomas wrote:
> On 26 Aug, 2004, at 11:30 AM, Ian Hickson wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Matthew Thomas wrote:
> > ...
> > > Er, really? So in HTML5, what do you propose will be the recommended way
> > > of making these controls invisible in downlevel UAs?
> > > ...
> > > * <select>
> > > * <textarea>
> > Not sure what you are referring to here, these aren't new in HTML5.
> Well, neither is <menu> technically. But my main point is that I don't
> see why being able to hide <menu>s without CSS is any more of a good
> idea than being able to hide any of those other interactive elements
> without CSS.
Because <menu>s have an out-of-band presentation, but <select> and
<textarea> are expected to render in the content area.
> > > I appreciate that CSS isn't an ideal degradation mechanism, but then
> > > making something invisible is an odd sort of degradation for an
> > > interactive element to begin with.
> > Not if that element wouldn't do anything useful anyway. For example,
> > you wouldn't want a context menu to degrade to something visible, you
> > would just not have the context menu feature. ...
> I think that's a bad misjudgement of the average intelligence of Web
> designers: it assumes that for each item in the shortcut menu, they'll
> provide alternative access elsewhere. But even developers of native
> applications (who are likely to be smarter on average, since developing
> native applications is more difficult) often forget to do this. (For
> example, a certain browser vendor that shall remain nameless makes it
> possible to set an image as your Windows wallpaper -- but only if you
> know of, and are able to use, the shortcut menu.)
> And no, saying "authors should provide alternative access to everything
> in a hidden-syntax shortcut menu" in the WA spec won't work, just as
> saying the same in the Mac and Windows UI guidelines hasn't worked for
> native applications. But at least in Mac OS and Windows it's always
> *possible* to access the shortcut menu, whereas in WA-ignorant UAs it
While I understand your concern, note that while the idea is that using
WHATWG-proposed features must be possible without crippling the legacy UA
experience, it is not a requirement that it be impossible to write WHATWG-
based documents that are not functionally equivalent in old UAs.
If your context menu uses WA1-specific features, then in pre-WA1 UAs there
might not _be_ an equivalent option, and so you just wouldn't want the
context menu to appear at all.
Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
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