[whatwg] Re: modal and modeless windows
karlhp at karlhp.com
Tue Jun 28 07:09:10 PDT 2005
Matthew Raymond wrote:
> Karl Pongratz wrote:
>> James Graham wrote:
>>> Karl Pongratz wrote:
>>>> Matthew Raymond wrote:
>>>>> Every indication is that chromeless windows are on their way out.
>>>> I would be very sad if that would happen. Its currently the only
>>>> way to keep forms out of history and to unlock them from the
>>>> back/next button.
>>>> So I would suggest to keep them and improve them rather than
>>>> removing them.
>>> Well if you can think of an easy way to improve them so that they a)
>>> obviously belong to the browser and b) clearly display the full
>>> location then I'm sure UA vendors will be happy to hear from you.
>>> Otherwise, the internet being the way it is, chromeless windows, on
>>> the public internet at least, have a short life expectancy.
>> Yep, I would be very happy with this approach, to lock chromeless
>> windows to the user agent and to always show the full location, and
>> that you can't connect to another domain than of the domain from
>> where you opened the window. This modification shouldn't be that
>> difficult to implement for user agent vendors, I think... and hope.
>> As far as I remember the domain restriction already exists.
> Did it occur to anyone that this is all hostile to the user? You
> prevent the user from accessing controls for browser (buttons, menus,
> et cetera). You prevent the user from going to another domain. You
> block their access to an underlying window. This all smacks of "let's
> control the users, because the users are stupid".
I wouldn't call users stupid, I would call web browsers stupid if they
are not capable to let the user complete a task in the most productive
and logical manner. However, I thought we are talking about web
applications, or do you want start reading your newspaper within
Dreamweaver, a Color Picker or your File Manager? Is that what you
intend :-) ?
>>>> I have no objection to avoid them if they are not really required.
>>>> Though what doing in the rare cases where you can't avoid them, I
>>>> guess Apple applications are still using modal windows in the one
>>>> or other case, and they will remain for another decade or two. Or
>>>> is it different?
>>> It seems to me that two different issues have been conflated here:
>>> modal windows (those which prevent their parent window from being
>>> focused) and chromeless/navigationless windows. Whilst there are a
>>> very few occasions in which I can see modal windows being useful I
>>> can also imagine that they would be abused for all sorts of nasty
>>> things (even more instrusive adverts, for example).
>> The case where you require modal windows may be rare, yet they are
>> extremely useful in those cases, I remember they are on the web
>> applications wish list at "Joel on software" as well,
>> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/oldnews/pages/June2004.html , section
>> Thursday, June 17, 2004.**
> Yeah, but he really doesn't way why. I was hoping he'd have a use
> case in there somewhere...
Are you sure you need a more detailed use case?
>> Yep, I am afraid that modal windows would be abused, as many other
>> things, though I consider some content you find on the web much more
>> harmful than modal windows could ever be, yet you allow authors to
>> publish content on the web :-).
>> Thinking more about it, in my case I would require the modal windows
>> on already opened chromeless windows, that could be a solution,
>> limiting the use of modal windows to already opened chromeless
>> windows, so that you can't open a modal window right away from a
>> regular web browser window, that would make it much more difficult to
>> abuse them. That is something I would be happy with and may cover
>> most use cases where modal windows are required.
> Congratulations. You just reinvented <xul:dialog>. :)
> Seriously, though, why not just standardize a subset of XUL
> ("sXUL") and use a compound document (XHTML + "sXUL"). We could make
> sXUL the standard for browser extensions while we're at it.
Pardon, there isn't much I know about Mozilla XUL in detail, XUL always
sounded interesting, though as only Mozilla supports XUL ...
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