[whatwg] The truth about Nokias claims

Shannon shannon at arc.net.au
Thu Dec 13 23:15:36 PST 2007

> Ian, as editor, was asked to do this.  It was a reasonable request to 
> reflect work in progress.  He did not take unilateral action. 
Ok, not unilateral. How about 'behind closed doors?'. Why no open 
discussion BEFORE the change?

4.) What prevents a third party plugin open-source from providing Ogg 
support on Safari and Nokia browsers?
> Nothing, but if the spec. required the support, the browser makers 
> cannot claim conformance.
The spec did not REQUIRE the support, it recommended it. You've now 
confirmed that doesn't cause non-compliance.
> 5.) Why are we waiting for ALL parties to agree when we all know they 
> won't? Why can't the majority have their way in the absence of 100% 
> agreement?
> Because we have the time to try to find a solution everyone can get 
> behind.  It's not as if we are holding final approval of HTML5 on this 
> issue.  There is plenty of technical work to do (even on the video and 
> audio tags) while we try to find the best solution.
Actually it appears that somebody was holding HTML5 to ransom on this 
issue. Now you've caved in. Now the rest of us are holding it. Touche?
Anyway, this is a great idea except 100% agreement is practically 
impossible. Are you claiming otherwise?
> We don't need a vote. 
That just about says it all, doesn't it? Is this a public standard or 
not? What is this list?
>> 6.) How much compelling content is required before the draft is 
>> reverted. Does Wikipeadia count as compelling?
> When will I stop beating my wife?  Your question has a false 
> assumption in it, that we are waiting for compelling content in order 
> to revert the draft. We're not.  We're working on understanding.
Then what ARE you waiting on (what PRACTICAL thing I mean)? 
Understanding what? My understanding is perfect. The MPEG-LA is upset 
with the Ogg proposal.
Also, when will you stop beating your wife? (since you brought it up). 
Ian has claimed compelling content could end this impasse. I do not 
believe it (any more than I believe you beat your wife).
> As Ian has said, we are going in circles on this list, with much heat 
> and very little if any new light.  Can we stop?  It is getting quite 
> tedious to hear see the same strawmen bashed on again and again.

Of course people would like this to end. Some more than others. It would 
help if those involved in creating the controversial changes would come 
up with a practical solution but they can't. If would help even more if 
you agreed to restore the text.

And who is blocking the light? Who created the strawmen? Was it Nokia 
claiming that Ogg was 'proprietary' (conveniently ignoring the fact it 
is public-domain). You claim 100% agreement is necessary to revoke the 
change. If so why wasn't it necessary BEFORE the change?

The way I see it we are expected to wait for an impossible event. No new 
protocol can possibly pass the expired patents test for at least 10 
years. Are you planning to wait that long to ratify HTML5?

I am NOT the villain here. MY interest in this matter is altruistic (as 
a web developer and user). I do not work for a company with existing 
commitments to a particular format. If I keep the debate going then it's 
because the answers given are unsatisfactory. I apologise to the rest of 
the list but this is an much more serious issue than the format of the 
<cite> tag to me.


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