[whatwg] The <dialog> element and related topics
Ian Hickson
ian at hixie.ch
Wed Jul 30 18:43:38 PDT 2008
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 html at nczonline.net wrote:
>
> * I understand the concept of the <dialog/> element but it's named
> completely wrong. The point is to markup a conversation between two or
> more parties. The problem is that the word "dialog", when in used in
> user interfaces, refers to small windows that can be interacted with.
> When I first read about this element, I assumed it was a way to indicate
> that part of the page is a dialog window outside of the normal flow of
> the document (which I thought was cool). After reading the rest, I was
> disappointed to find out that wasn't the intent. I'd rename this element
> as <conversation/> or <discussion/> to avoid such misunderstandings.
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Krzysztof Żelechowski wrote:
>
> I recommend <transcript> because it refers to a conversation that has
> been put down, as compared to a live <conversation> (I do not recommend
> introducing the latter, of course, as HTML is not live).
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Smylers wrote, regarding the <transcript> idea:
>
> However many things in webpages are things which have been written down!
>
> This is specifically a transcript of some speech -- not a transcript of
> commands typed at a computer prompt, nor an exam transcript, nor any
> other kind of transcript.
>
> So focusing on the thing being transcribed, the speech, seems more
> sensible; that it has been written down is something which will be
> readily apparent to anybody reading it!
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Køi¹tof ®elechovski wrote:
>
> Commands typed at a computer prompt do form a conversation between the
> commander and the executor (if the executor responds - otherwise it is
> good old CODE). On the other hand, a speech is closer to a monologue
> (soliloquy).
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Smylers wrote, regarding the <talk> idea:
>
> Indeed; as a noun a "talk" seems to refer to a presentation more often
> than the action of talking. <talking> would be less subject to
> misinterpretation, but the gerund form makes an awkward tag name.
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Køi¹tof ®elechovski wrote, regarding <converse>:
>
> "converse" is more an adjective like "opposite" to me. Which is even
> more awkward.
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote, regarding <talk>:
>
> Honestly, though, are we concerned that people will think a <talk>
> element in html refers to a slideshow? The ambiguity of <dialog> occurs
> because there is a very reasonable and natural interpretation for the
> element name within the context of web applications that happens to be
> completely wrong. <talk>, while certainly ambiguous in some ways, is
> extremely clear within the context of a web application. There is no
> other major existing entity or idea with the same or similar name for it
> to clash with.
On Wed, 7 May 2008, Simon Pieters wrote, regarding <dialogue>:
>
> Also see http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=24 for discussion
> about <dialog> vs <dialogue>.
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Mikko Rantalainen wrote:
> Ian Hickson wrote:
> >
> > Experience with language="" on <script> suggests that many authors
> > have serious difficulties spelling words that contain the "gu" letter
> > pair.
>
> I, too, think that the word "dialog" sounds more like dialog window or
> dialog box than a dialogue.
>
> I'd prefer dialogue over dialog for following reasons:
>
> - cannot be confused with dialog box or dialog window
>
> - the dialogue tag would probably most often be generated by CMS system
> or authoring software so spelling errors are not such a big issue
>
> - dialogue is pretty seldom used feature and I believe it doesn't
> deserve any shorter tag
>
> If <dialog> is used instead of <dialogue> then it should be designed in
> a such way that it can be used for dialog box in addition to dialogue
> (e.g. chat) in the future.
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
>
> I severely doubt this is possible or desirable. It would make it *more*
> confusing, I think, if <dialog> was meant for dialog boxes *and* marking
> up conversations.
>
> Just to throw out yet another possibility, how about <convo>? I don't
> like it too much, but it at least avoids most of the issues that plagued
> the other submissions. I'm generally convinced that <dialog> is an okay
> choice for this, but if we *were* to change, I at least want to make
> sure it's something I can get behind.
>
> My personal favorite alternate suggestion so far has been <cl>. Short
> and a little confusing? Maybe. But it has the benefit of being
> unambiguous and parallels existing tags with similar syntax. But meh,
> it's probably not quite right, as <dialog> isn't meant to be
> illustrating a conversation list, but rather is a list illustrating a
> conversation.
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Charles wrote:
>
> My personal favorite alternate suggestion so far has been <cl>.
On Thu, 15 May 2008, Mike Wilson wrote:
>
> Yes, I also quite like the analogy with dl/ul/ol. But it may be
> confusing when using dt and dd as child elements (as in the current spec
> for dialog):
>
> <cl>
> <dt>
> <dd>
> ...
> </cl>
>
> That could be resolved by introducing elements ct and cd:
>
> <cl>
> <ct>
> <cd>
> ...
> </cl>
>
> and that I guess can be regarded as making things better OR worse
> depending on your focus...
On Wed, 14 May 2008, fantasai wrote:
>
> Of course most people using these elements won't be reading the spec. It
> is quite likely that someone will assume <dialog> is the "correct" tag
> to use for a CSS+JS dialog box.
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Scott Hess wrote:
>
> They are reasonably unlikely to ship a web page that assumes that,
> though.
>
> People who don't read specs generally build web pages by copying and
> pasting from other web pages. They don't just think up random things
> they'd like to see and try them out to see if they work. So people
> looking for a dialog box are going to be looking for an example with a
> dialog box, which will _not_ reference the <dialog> element, so they
> won't be particularly confused. People looking for an example of how to
> express back-and-forth dialogue will find a web page which does so,
> which does use the <dialog> element, and they will also not be confused.
> Or at least they won't be materially more or less confused than they
> would be if the tag was <al> or something (al for "alternating list").
On Thu, 15 May 2008, Keryx Web wrote, regarding <discourse>:
>
> Discourse is too general.
>
> In philosophy and theology a discourse can mean "teaching", as in
> "Levinas' discourse about 'the other' has made alterity a recurring
> theme in all modern philosophy" or "pentecostal theology is defined by
> its discourse about the charims".
>
> I would not associate <discourse> with a spoken list-like dialog. That
> would be way too narrow.
On Thu, 15 May 2008, Ernest Cline wrote:
>
> Because of the backwards compatibility using <dt> and <dd> with a new
> dialog element would have with most existing UA's, I'd be leery of
> changing the names unless additional types of child elements for
> <dialog/> (by whatever name it gets) were added, such as an element to
> markup stage directions, audience response, or the like. Then, since
> we'd be introducing enough new stuff to break compatibility anyway:
>
> <dialog/>
> <speaker/> (what <dt/> currently is)
> <speech/> (what <dd/> currently is)
> <fx/> (a new element for stage effects, audience response etc.)
On Thu, 15 May 2008, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
>
> Yeah, I'm backing off of that position... I'm back to liking plain
> <dialog> or <talk>. Either sounds great to me.
Having considered everyone's opinion here, I've decided to stick with the
original name, <dialog>. It has a few advantages: it starts with "d", so
it works well with <dt> and <dd>. It doesn't end in "gue", so it hopefully
avoids the problems that "language" had. It means the right thing.
I agree that the term is confusing with dialog boxes, however, nobody has
made up the <dialog> element to mark up dialog boxes so far, so I see no
reason for them to start. People who come across <dialog> are immediately
going to see that it is for dialogue, so I don't see a problem here.
On Wed, 7 May 2008, fantasai wrote:
> > On Fri, 30 Mar 2007, Michel Fortin wrote:
> > > Here are some various potential use cases for <dialog> I've
> > > collected and which I think are problematic with the way the
> > > <dialog> element is currently defined.
> > >
> > > Regular dialogue:
> > >
> > > http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2007/03/26/070326sh_shouts_rich
> >
> > We can do everything in that except the annnotations like
> > "(laughing)". I'm not sure how to handle those.
>
> Alternate voice: <i>.
The problem is where to put the <i>.
> On 4 April 2007 Michael Fortin wrote:
> >
> > Indeed it could... in this case. Sometime however the time is
> > indicated every 5, or 10 minutes to not overload the dialogue with
> > time references, in which case associating the time reference with the
> > speaker may not be the best thing to do. ...
>
> Quite a few of the use cases you're having trouble with here would be
> easily solved by allowing <p> inside <dialog>, parallel with <dt> and
> <dd>. I think breaking the <dialog> for headings and sections makes
> sense, but not for interjecting things like floating timestamps, /me
> lines and other non-spoken active description.
>
> > On Fri, 30 Mar 2007, Anne van Kesteren wrote:
> > > If I remember correctly <li> was suggested for this purpose on IRC.
> > > The advantage of <li> over <p> would be that people wouldn't easily
> > > think you could put anything inside <dialog> (as you put <p> almost
> > > anywhere).
> >
> > Anything but <dt> and <dd> is going to cause us headaches in the
> > parser.
>
> Is the problem with existing parsers or with the parsing algorithm?
>
> <dialog>
> <dt>Ray</dt>
> <dd>Who are you?</dd>
> <dt>Faye<dt>
> <dd>The cookie girl.</dd>
> <p>Faye offers Ray some cookies.</p>
> <dt>Ray</dt>
> <dd>Thanks.</dd>
> </dialog>
>
> Opera, Safari, and Konqueror seem to handle the nesting just fine. IE
> and Firefox have problems with it, but they're inconsistent: Firefox
> ends the <dialog> (but doesn't end a <dl> in the same situation), IE
> slurps the paragraph into the previous <dd>. Seems reasonable for the
> parsing algorithm to adopt the Presto/WebKit/KHTML approach.
The problem is that the </dd> end tag is optional, and <p> doesn't imply
it, so this:
<dialog>
<dt> Baker's Wife
<dd> Why, come in, little girl.
<dt> Little Red Ridinghood
<dd> I wish... It's not for me, it's for my Granny in the woods. A
loaf of bread, please. To bring my poor old hungry Granny in the
woods. Just a loaf of bread, please.
</dialog>
...works, but this:
<dialog>
<dt> Baker's Wife
<dd> Why, come in, little girl.
<p> Little Red Ridinghood enters the baker's shop.
<dt> Little Red Ridinghood
<dd> I wish... It's not for me, it's for my Granny in the woods. A
loaf of bread, please. To bring my poor old hungry Granny in the
woods. Just a loaf of bread, please.
</dialog>
...suddenly doesn't, you need to add the </dd>. Which sucks.
--
Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
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