[whatwg] Proposal: target="_tab"

Fri Jun 13 01:17:57 PDT 2008

I've been following this discussion for a while and I agree a new  
'_tab' target is not necessary. To my mind _blank implies a new  
browser canvas. There are two implementations for creating a new  
canvas these days; a new window, or a new tab. The key question is:  
what does _blank mean? Does it only mean 'a new window'? Or does it  
mean 'a new canvas'? To my mind it means the latter.
I don't see why HTML should bother with user experience (new tab, or  
new window). This has more to do with style sheets (also this is  
arguably to my mind).

-jorgen

On Jun 13, 2008, at 10:03 AM, João Eiras wrote:

> 2008/6/13 Borek Bernard <borekbe at yahoo.co.uk>:
>> Hi João,
>>
>> you're right that everything important has been already said. I
>> have withdrawn this proposal because it has been pointed out that it
>> is not backwards compatible and the correct solution will be part of
>> CSS3 anyway (which is much more flexible - we will have not only
>> target-new, but also target-position; I guess you strongly dislike
>> both of them).
>
> What's lovely about css, is that features like this can be easily
> disabled with local stylesheet. Overriding _tab would requiring
> running local script, which greater performance impact, and migh thave
> unforseen consequences. So css gives greater control, with less
> effort.
>
>>
>> But the discussion has been interesting anyway. There is probably no
>> point in carrying on because we see the problem from two different
>> standpoints - you want to have the specs as "pure" as possible  
>> while I
>> want them to be as flexible as possible so that it can accommodate  
>> any
>> use case you can think of.
>
> It's not about being pure, it's about not giving more control to the
> webpage than it should have. For a webpage running in a tab or
> separate window is exactly the same thing.
>
>
>> I kind of understand why simpler standards are better than the longer
>> ones but on the other hand, the lack of "_tab" or something similar
>> makes my user experience on some websites suboptimal (heck, even
>> frustrating sometimes). If you can't appreciate that different users
>> can have different user preferences ("I can't honestly come up with a
>> single reason why a webpage should open a new window instead of  
>> tab"),
>
> This is not a user preference. It's the complete opposite. The spec
> would allow a user preference to be broken by spaning windows or tabs
> accordingly to the webpage author's liking.
> Historically, we've seen that giving webpage control over the user's
> browser in someway can be abused: alert(), open(), oncontextmenu ...
>
>> you will probably have hard times understanding my points. But your
>> view is quite common as I've learned :)
>
>
>
>> Regards,
>> Borek
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: João Eiras <joao.eiras at gmail.com>
>> To: Borek Bernard <borekbe at yahoo.co.uk>; whatwg at lists.whatwg.org
>> Sent: Thursday, 12 June, 2008 7:17:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [whatwg] Proposal: target="_tab"
>>
>> Hi ! I didn't saw that reply.
>>
>>> I'm not sure why you keep insisting that it's up to the browser --  
>>> IMO, it's
>>> up to the USER.
>>
>> You're not understanding me:
>> when I say browser, obviously I mean client, client-side, browser,
>> user or whatever you want to call it, as opposed to web application  
>> or
>> server-side
>>
>>> Also, having means to open new tabs as opposed to new windows in  
>>> the specs
>>> is nothing against the user preference, in fact, it helps to  
>>> express the
>>> user preference if the browser fails to provide it.
>>
>> Then we're going to bloat a specification due to browser  
>> idiosyncrasies ?
>> Allowing a page to control such behavior would be bad. Currently
>> browsers with tabbed interface manage to unclutter the taskbar and
>> desktop, while aggregate pages inside a single window, which is
>> overall good for the user's experience, good for performance, good
>> usability.
>>
>> We'd be providing a mechanism that is not backwards compatible with
>> the current state of the art user agents, although we've seen that  
>> new
>> features heavily demanded get implemented quickly, and we'd be
>> providing, again, authors with mechanism to degrade the user's
>> experience.
>>
>> I can't honestly come up with a single reason why a webpage should
>> open a new window instead of tab. All use cases you can come up fit
>> better if new tabs are open. If you don't like the fact that a tab
>> fits the entire window, you can either detach it, your use a user
>> agent that support MDI interface.
>>
>> With all this say now your going to tell me I'm contradicting myself
>> by supporting windows now. No, you'd be wrong. I'd expect a browser  
>> to
>> always open tabs if there's a _blank target. Having _target and_tab
>> would require UA's to support two different way of opening new pages:
>> tabbed and detached ones.
>>
>> For me it's all a matter of letting the user control the web page.
>>
>> Considering this discussion is still going to last a bit, and
>> everything significant that could be said by me and others was  
>> said, I
>> rest my case.
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>>
>> 2008/6/12 Kristof Zelechovski <giecrilj at stegny.2a.pl>:
>>> Programmatically controlling the containment of a new window is a  
>>> two-edged
>>> sword: you can provide for the lame user agent but you can also  
>>> override
>>> user settings.  The latter possibility is more painful; upgrading  
>>> the
>>> browser is easier than dealing with an impertinent Web site.
>>> IMHO,
>>> Chris
>>> P.S.: If you want your answer to go to João only, just send it  
>>> exclusively
>>> to him.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Borek Bernard [mailto:borekbe at yahoo.co.uk]
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 11:25 AM
>>> To: Joao Eiras; Kristof Zelechovski; Ian Hickson; whatwg at lists.whatwg.org
>>> Subject: Re: [whatwg] Proposal: target="_tab"
>>>
>>> Hi João,
>>>
>>> I'm not sure why you keep insisting that it's up to the browser --  
>>> IMO, it's
>>> up to the USER. Please read all my arguments before, it's not true  
>>> that a
>>> user using a tabbed browser always prefers opening new tabs  
>>> instead of new
>>> windows. That's just your user preference.
>>>
>>> Also, having means to open new tabs as opposed to new windows in  
>>> the specs
>>> is nothing against the user preference, in fact, it helps to  
>>> express the
>>> user preference if the browser fails to provide it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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