[whatwg] framesets
Peter Brawley
pb at artfulsoftware.com
Fri Oct 9 13:33:12 PDT 2009
Boris,
> use cases that the W3C wants to discourage ...
That W3C mindset promotes no greater good; it just imposes an idea of
what use cases should and shouldn't specify. Might as wellwrite popuo
removal into HTML5.
> The use cases can still be addressed with <iframe> and a bit of pain
if resizing is desired, as far as I can tell.
I quoted Andrew Fedoniouk
(http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-March/010186.html),
"There are use cases when frames are good. As an example: online (and
offline) help systems ... In such cases they provide level of usability
higher than any other method of presenting content of such type."
I've not seen a counterexample. Have you?
>So this is all about assuming that the bit of pain will be enough of
an inconvenience
>for authors that they will either address the use case in some way not
involving iframes
>at all (and which presumably has a lower pain threshild; what is this
way?)
As above, no-one seems able to point to a non-frameset solution.
>or not address
>the use case at all (unlikely, since they're being paid to address it).
IMO money has no place in this discussion.
> Since UAs must continue supporting framesets anyway, the reasoning
behind removing them seems somewhat weak to me.
Yes.
PB
-----
Boris Zbarsky wrote:
> On 10/9/09 2:55 PM, Peter Brawley wrote:
>> Framesets are part of the current HTML standard and should remain.
>
> This isn't really a convincing argument. There are various other
> things that are part of HTML 4.01 that are worth removing and have
> been removed.
>
> That said, I'm not sure why there's a worry about what's in the
> standard given the
> http://www.artfulsoftware.com/infotree/mysqlquerytree.php example
> (which doesn't actually validate per the HTML 4.01 standard, since
> it's missing a doctype).
>
> On a general note, though, the reasoning behind removing framesets
> seems to be that they make it very easy to address specific authoring
> use cases that the W3C wants to discourage, right? The use cases can
> still be addressed with <iframe> and a bit of pain if resizing is
> desired, as far as I can tell. So this is all about assuming that the
> bit of pain will be enough of an inconvenience for authors that they
> will either address the use case in some way not involving iframes at
> all (and which presumably has a lower pain threshild; what is this
> way?) or not address the use case at all (unlikely, since they're
> being paid to address it). Since UAs must continue supporting
> framesets anyway, the reasoning behind removing them seems somewhat
> weak to me.
>
> -Boris
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