[whatwg] A tag for measurements / quantity?

[Jonas Sicking]

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Ian Hickson<ian at hixie.ch> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2009, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Ian Hickson<ian at hixie.ch> wrote:
>> >
>> > I can't imagine really seeing enough sites using this to make it worth
>> > it, but maybe our experience with <time> will show this kind of thing
>> > is used a lot.
>>
>> > On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Jeremy Keith wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The measurement microformat will enable unambiguous description of
>> >> physical quantities and thus provide a solid ground for data sharing
>> >> and automation in many areas."
>> >
>> > This is begging the question. Just because a pattern occurs a lot
>> > doesn't mean that it should be marked up.
>>
>> Seems like these two arguments can be made against <meter> and <dialog>
>> respectively.
>
> Yes.
>
> Neither <dialog> nor <meter> were added because they are expected to be
> used in great numbers. Both were added to prevent another element from
> being _mis_used. (Specifically, <dialog> takes away from the risk of
> people marking up dialogs as association lists, and <meter> takes away
> from the risk of people marking up gauges as progress bars.)

While I can see the argument for <meter>, I'm not sure I see it with
<dialog>. First of all, as others have pointed out, <dialog> is
generally not feature-full enough to mark up dialogs. Second, given
that association lists already exist, we should be able to check
existing pages to see if people are abusing lists to mark up dialogs.

I started by looking at some sites with the Romeo and Juliet play:

http://www.william-shakespeare.info/act1-script-text-romeo-and-juliet.htm
Uses <br>

http://shakespearemiami.tripod.com/id22.html
Uses <blockquote>

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/romeo_juliet/full.html
Uses <blockquote>

http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/r/romeo-and-juliet-script-screenplay.html
Uses <pre>

http://www.clicknotes.com/romeo/T11.html
<p> and <br>

http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/views/plays/play_view.php?WorkID=romeojuliet&Act=1&Scene=1&Scope=scene
One <ul><li>...</li></ul> for each quote.

http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521618700&ss=exc
Uses <p>


I also looked for transcripts of the frost/nixon interview:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2007/sep/07/greatinterviews1
Uses <p>

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2008/06/inspiration-by-digby-as-constitutional.html
Uses <br>

http://www.ourblook.com/Reporters-and-the-Media/The-Nixon-Interviews-with-David-Frost.html
Uses <br>

http://remember-nixon.org/
Uses <pre>

https://pol.moveon.org/archive/breakingthelaw_sub1.html
Basically uses one <ul><li>...</li></ul> for each quote.

http://belowthebeltway.com/2009/04/30/condi-rice-channels-richard-nixon-if-the-president-authorizes-it-its-not-illegal/
Uses <p>


I also looked at transcripts for the "Silly Job Interview" play by Monty Python:

http://www.orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/intview.htm
Uses <p>
(this site does use a list, but not for the actual dialog)

http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode05.htm
Uses a table with a <tr> for each line in the dialog.
(This is actually another monty python skit, but it turned up in my
search and I figured it didn't really matter)

http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Series_1/35.htm
Uses <p>

http://www.ulrikchristensen.dk/scripts/montypython/sillyjob.html
Uses <p>

http://www.cardinalfang.net/episodes/season_one/silly_job_interview.html
Uses <p> (and <o:p>)


Finally I simply did a google search for "interview transcript":
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/28/60minutes/main590381.shtml
Uses <br>

http://www.pokerlistings.com/blog/ashman103-the-interview-transcript
Uses <p>

http://www.pgatour.com/2009/tournaments/r027/08/30/sunday.transcript.slocum/index.html
Uses <p>

http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/8/15/990765/clyde-drexler-interview-transcript
Uses <p>

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7065633
Uses <p>

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2008/05/bill_belichicks.html
Uses <p>

http://d5.allthingsd.com/20070531/d5-gates-jobs-transcript/
Uses <p>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/nov/08/dizzee-rascal-paxman-jeremy-bbc
Uses <p>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/jaycee-lee-dugard/6105540/Phillip-Garridos-interview-transcript.html
Uses <p>

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=2594
Uses <p>

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article2777973.ece
Uses <p>

http://www.cdi.org/adm/1351/Yafei.html
Uses <p>

http://www.ronsuskind.com/thewayoftheworld/transcripts/
Uses <p>

http://www.anusha.com/osamaint.htm
Uses <p>


So in this data, I found only two pages that use lists at all, and
none that used association lists. And even the two pages that did use
lists, didn't put the whole dialog into a single list, but rather one
list for each line. In one of the cases
(https://pol.moveon.org/archive/breakingthelaw_sub1.html) I can only
guess that the page is using <ul><li> in order to get bullet points
displayed, i.e. for layout reasons. In the other
(http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/views/plays/play_view.php?WorkID=romeojuliet&Act=1&Scene=1&Scope=scene)
I really can't figure out the intent.

In any case, this data does not seem to indicate that dialogs
erroneously being marked up as association lists is a problem. Does
anyone have data indicating otherwise?

/ Jonas