[whatwg] Expanding the cite element
Ian Hickson
ian at hixie.ch
Mon Aug 2 19:09:53 PDT 2010
On Wed, 5 May 2010, Simpson, Grant Leyton wrote:
>
> Is there any value in adding an "href" or "uri" or similar attribute to
> the <cite> element to indicate a location for a work (or information
> about the work) or, in the case of a URI, an indicator that can be used
> as a reference programmatically?
I don't know; is there? What would the use case be?
> <q> has a "cite" attribute, so it seems to me that if we have a place to
> link to further information in <q> it makes sense to do so in <cite>.
To be honest, <q cite> hasn't been very successful. One could argue it is
a failed experiment. :-) If it wasn't more or less harmless, I'd probably
be arguing to remove it.
> If it were a URI (and therefore not necessarily retrievable), it would
> help in cases where the same work gets referenced in slightly different
> ways:
>
> <p>As Ashley Crandall Amos says in <cite
> uri="http://example.com/books/crandall/linguisticmeans">Linguistic Means
> of Determining the Dates of Old English Literary Texts</cite> ... Amos
> also mentions in <cite
> uri="http://example.com/books/crandall/linguisticmeans">Linguistic
> Means</cite></p>
Works tend to have as many different URIs to reference them as titles,
sometimes more. :-)
On Thu, 6 May 2010, Edward O'Connor wrote:
>
> <cite uri> has a much worse fallback story than simply embedding a link
> in <cite>.
>
> > <p>As Ashley Crandall Amos says in <cite
> > uri="http://example.com/books/crandall/linguisticmeans">Linguistic
> > Means of Determining the Dates of Old English Literary Texts</cite>
> > ... Amos also mentions in <cite
> > uri="http://example.com/books/crandall/linguisticmeans">Linguistic
> > Means</cite></p>
>
> Consider how the above would work in legacy browsers, and then consider
> how this would work in them:
>
> <p>As Ashley Crandall Amos says in <cite><a
> href="http://example.com/books/crandall/linguisticmeans">Linguistic
> Means of Determining the Dates of Old English Literary Texts</a></cite>
> ... Amos also mentions in <cite><a
> href="http://example.com/books/crandall/linguisticmeans">Linguistic
> Means</a></cite></p>
Using <a> does seem like it would solve this neatly without additional
effort.
On Thu, 6 May 2010, Schalk Neethling wrote:
>
> I guess this is the 'Paving the cowpaths' situation. Is there a
> 'standard' where most developers do as in the sample by Ted?
That's a good question; have people found this useful enough to work
around the lack of an attribute here? If not, maybe there's no problem to
solve in the first place.
On Fri, 7 May 2010, Simpson, Grant Leyton wrote:
>
> 1. Referencing something in the href attributed of an <a> tag implies
> that the URI will resolve to a URL, that is, that it will be accessible
> on the web at that address. Not every URI is a URL, though. That's what
> I was trying to do with a "uri" attribute for the <cite> tag is to
> identify the resource, not necessarily link to it.
Any link could be resolved; for example the browser could have a handler
for isbn: links that looks up the book on Amazon or Google Books.
> 2. We would have to formally define what <a> within <cite> means,
> otherwise we would leave the pairing up for interpretation.
Until we know that this is a problem people really want solving, that's
probably ok.
> 3. Are there instances where tags that can be used separately take on a
> different meaning in relation to one another? I know what <li> means in
> relation to <ol> and <ul>, but then again, I can't really use <li>
> outside of either of those two.
<a> wouldn't take on a different meaning, it would just add additional
information to the page.
On Sat, 8 May 2010, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:
>
> I'm not opposed to adding @cite to <cite> but note that when you are
> identifying a resource rather than linking to a resource, you could use
> microdata or RDFa.
>
> For example:
>
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/md/#global-identifiers-for-items
>
> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-microdata-markup-comparison#Book_markup_with_ISBN_and_description
Indeed, that may be a better solution in general.
> > 2. We would have to formally define what <a> within <cite> means,
> > otherwise we would leave the pairing up for interpretation.
>
> You stated that you want to "indicate a location for a work (or
> information about the work)".
>
> A hyperlink indicates the location of an item or information about an
> item, and "a href" creates a hyperlink.
>
> What could be the other interpretations of <cite><a href="...">Work
> title</a></cite> or <a href="..."><cite>Work title</cite></a> other than
> that the hyperlink locates the work or information about the work?
Indeed.
> > 3. Are there instances where tags that can be used separately take on
> > a different meaning in relation to one another? I know what <li>
> > means in relation to <ol> and <ul>, but then again, I can't really use
> > <li> outside of either of those two.
>
> I think the combination of "cite" and "a" to indicate a work title and
> the location of the work or information about the work does not involve
> changing the meaning of either "cite" or "a". This is the markup
> equivalent of:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_composition
Right.
On Mon, 10 May 2010, Simpson, Grant Leyton wrote:
>
> I was unaware of the Microdata spec. Now that I have seen it, I think
> it offers a lot of power and flexibility. I think it should adequately
> cover the use case I was thinking of.
Excellent!
> I'm in favor of adding a non-normative note to the section of the HTML5
> spec that discusses <cite> that demonstrates how Microdata or RDFa could
> be used for this purpose. There will likely be other people like me who
> read the <cite> section of the spec and think "What? I can't actually
> make the citation point to something?"
Do you have a suggested example of how you've ended up using this? I
prefer to use real-world examples where possible for this kind of thing.
--
Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
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