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Ian<br>
<br>
Thanks for your interest in the issue.<br>
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<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags"></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> > > </span>I quoted Andrew Fedoniouk
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> > > </span>(<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-March/010186.html">http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-March/010186.html</a>),
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> > > </span>"There are use cases when frames are good. As an example: online (and
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> > > </span>offline) help systems ... In such cases they provide level of usability
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> > > </span>higher than any other method of presenting content of such type."
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> > ></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> > > </span>I've not seen a counterexample. Have you?<span
class="moz-txt-citetags">> ></span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> > </span>I believe Andrew's statement to be incorrect.<span
class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>If your belief is correct, there must be sites which accomplish this
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>spec with tables + iframes (for example). No contributor has managed to
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>point to them.
</pre>
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<pre wrap=""><!---->>I don't know if there are pages that do this (and I sure hope none are
>using <table> for it!), but the lack of an existence proof is not proof of
>the lack of existence.
</pre>
Of course. The point is if no-one can point to a working
iframes solution, ie, to an instance of them actually being preferred,
the claim that iframes provide a preferable alternative is simply not
credible, to put it mildly.<br>
<br>
>However, in the interests of moving this on, I made an example here
in <br>
>about ten minutes:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/framesets-with-iframes/001.html">>http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/framesets-with-iframes/001.html</a><br>
<br>
Yes, iframes can implement some features of the spec. See above.<br>
<br>
PB<br>
<br>
-----<br>
<br>
Ian Hickson wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:Pine.LNX.4.62.0910130924420.25383@hixie.dreamhostps.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Mon, 12 Oct 2009, Peter Brawley wrote:
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">I quoted Andrew Fedoniouk
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-March/010186.html">http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-March/010186.html</a>),
"There are use cases when frames are good. As an example: online (and
offline) help systems ... In such cases they provide level of usability
higher than any other method of presenting content of such type."
I've not seen a counterexample. Have you?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">I believe Andrew's statement to be incorrect.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">If your belief is correct, there must be sites which accomplish this
spec with tables + iframes (for example). No contributor has managed to
point to them.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
I don't know if there are pages that do this (and I sure hope none are
using <table> for it!), but the lack of an existence proof is not proof of
the lack of existence.
However, in the interests of moving this on, I made an example here in
about ten minutes:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/framesets-with-iframes/001.html">http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/framesets-with-iframes/001.html</a>
It doesn't do the resizing, and I didn't test it in IE so it probably
needs some hacks to work around some bugs there, but it works fine for me
in Safari. Resizing in a single page in general is a solved problem, you
can probably slap a little JS on there and it would be supported too. (It
should be easier to do, mind you; that's a CSS problem though, and affects
more than just frames.)
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">search engines can't index into them (search is a critical part of help
systems), pages in them can't easily be bookmarked
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">A DB row is a tree node and it must be possible to block bookmarking of such
rows.
</pre>
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<pre wrap=""><!---->
Framesets don't block bookmarking of such rows. They just make it harder.
(A user can always right-click a frame and get the URL to bookmark it.)
AJAX can block bookmarking of such rows, though.
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009, Peter Brawley wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">There are good database reasons to block bookmarks to table rows, so
that must be doable.
</pre>
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<pre wrap=""><!---->
That's fair enough, but framesets don't provide that possibility. They
only make bookmarking significantly harder; they don't make it impossible.
Indeed there have been a number of browsers over the years who have
implemented various hacks whereby the user can bookmark the entire state
of a frameset. The usability of such hacks has been poor, but the point is
that if the requirement is that bookmarking not work, frames don't
actually fulfill that need.
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<pre wrap="">
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