[html5] Using <section> and <h1> ? Theoretical?

[Steve Faulkner]

>>* Does this really justify the confusion?
*
>The only confusion I've seen stems from the way the W3C has forked the
>spec and changed this part of it.

Incorrect, the outline algorithm has not been changed, authoring
advice has changed, bringing it in line with reality, nothing more.

You were well aware that the W3C would continue work on HTML after you
vacated the editorship at the W3C, it an be no surprise we have.



--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>


On 14 May 2014 20:02, <help-request at lists.whatwg.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Using <section> and <h1> ? Theoretical? (Brian Tremblay)
>    2. Re: Using <section> and <h1> ? Theoretical? (Bruce Lawson)
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 10:34:29 -0700
> From: Brian Tremblay <webmaster at tsmchughs.com>
> Cc: "help at lists.whatwg.org" <help at lists.whatwg.org>
> Subject: Re: [html5] Using <section> and <h1> ? Theoretical?
> Message-ID: <5373A925.2030904 at tsmchughs.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 5/14/14, 10:18 AM, Chris Rockwell wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/14/14, 9:30 AM, Bruce Lawson wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 14 May 2014 17:22, Brian Tremblay wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> What does the html 4 outline do?
> >>>
> >>> there isn't such a concept in HTML4
> >>
> >> That's sort of my point. The W3C are denigrating the html5 whatwg
> >> outline model (<h1> in nested sections) because the outline is a
> >> fiction. But what do authors lose by using that, instead of
> >> <h2-6>?
> >
> > The point of the warning, as I see it, is to advise the author that
> > if his/her intention is to be more accessible by using multiple
> > <h1>'s, their efforts will not only be in vain as no UA's have
> > implemented it (and some conversations infer they have no intention
> > of doing so), but they could further confuse agents that have users
> > depending on the accuracy of the outline.
>
> *How* are users depending on the accuracy of the outline? What
> user-agents do anything with the outline that breaks with the whatwg
> method? Bruce Lawson states that there is no concept of a document
> outline in html 4. I agree. So istm that authors lose exactly nothing by
> using <h1> only, since currently uas do nothing with it, and prior to
> html5, uas did nothing with it.
>
> The only thing I see them doing with <h1>, <h2>, ect., is showing them
> on a page. The same thing they do with most elements, e.g., <table>,
> <dl>, <p>, etc. (<a> would be a very notable exception.) So the only
> problem I see is user agents which don't understand <section> and nested
> <h1> elements, *and* which either have css turned off or don't offer
> proper support for css. Is that accurate?
>
> --
> Brian Tremblay
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 18:38:37 +0100
> From: Bruce Lawson <brucel at opera.com>
> To: Brian Tremblay <webmaster at tsmchughs.com>
> Cc: help at lists.whatwg.org
> Subject: Re: [html5] Using <section> and <h1> ? Theoretical?
> Message-ID:
>         <CAAFGReeyHkQ=Q2dvfVG9t+AHGLJ=
> co2jLBi_dCrKFSJZj-h-hA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 14 May 2014 18:20, Brian Tremblay <webmaster at tsmchughs.com> wrote:
> > The two pages are identical in content, and identical in markup except
> > for one thing: foo uses <h2>, <h3>, etc.; bar uses <h1> nested in
> > <section>. Someone visits each page. Practically speaking, how is her
> > experience with foo different from that of bar?
>
> most assistive technologies allow users to move between levels to get
> a mental model of the hierarchy of information on a page: for example,
> one of the big screenreaders allows the user to press "2" to move
> between h2 headings, "3" to move between h3 headings
> (
> http://doccenter.freedomscientific.com/doccenter/archives/training/JAWSKeystrokes.htm
> ).
>
> 66% of screenreader users navigate like this.
> (http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey5/#finding)
>
>  On /bar.html there is no such hierarchy.
>
> See this video by a blind web developer called "Importance of HTML
> Headings for Accessibility"
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmUPhEVWu_E
>
> Bruce Lawson
>
>
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