[whatwg] Re: About XHTML 2.0
Ian Hickson
ian at hixie.ch
Sun May 22 16:38:19 PDT 2005
On Mon, 23 May 2005, Christoph Päper wrote:
> Ian Hickson schrieb:
> >
> > I read a lot of fiction books and when I come across a "* * *" it reads to
> > me like a paragraph, saying "Meanwhile, in a different part of the
> > universe:"; it doesn't read as "end section. new section:".
>
> <section>
> ...
> <div class="pov Foo">...</div>
> <!-- 'plot', 'note', 'loc', 'place', 'time', 'story' ... -->
> <!-- former place of 'hr' in disguise -->
> <div class="pov Bar">...</div>
> <!-- former place of 'hr' in disguise -->
> <div class="pov Foo">...</div>
> ...
> </section>
...has no semantics apart from delineating one section. Remember that
class="" and <div> are meaningless. A document has the same semantics
after you strip out any class attributes and <div> elements.
> > To put it another way, sections are things that you can put a title
> > to.
>
> 'div' is the proper HTML element type for subdivisions (of sections) that
> actually are not sections.
According to what specification? According to HTML4, <div> only "defines
content to be block-level" (whatever that means!).
> Anyhow you can still group paragraphs by wrapping them in a division
> instead of dividing them by a separator. The latter is IMO not a very
> markupish approach. MLs are usually about putting (informational) atoms
> into bags and these into larger ones, iterated until you reach the top
> one, the root.
The paragraphs are all part of the <section> (chapter). They're not
further grouped together, IMHO. An <hr> is equivalent to a <p> with the
content "Meanwhile, somewhere else..." or similar ("From someone else's
point of view...", "At another time..."). In fact if a story was to be
styled into comic form, <hr> elements would typically be presented as
narrator-level text in the next paragraph's panel. For example:
<p><q>No!</q> said Fred.</p>
<hr>
<p>The tree stood alone.</p>
In comic form:
+----------+ +--------------+-------+
| _____ | | Meanwhile... | |
| < No! > | +--------------+ |
| \/^^^ | | /|\ |
| o | | /|\ |
| -+- | | | |
| / \ | | | |
+----------+ +----------------------+
Not that we have any user agents or stylesheet languages (short of actual
humans) capable of that kind of interpretation and presentation today, but
my point is that the <hr> here is a unit on par with a paragraph, it's not
an artefact of an implied higher level grouping.
In text form:
"No!" said Fred.
* * *
The tree stood alone.
In aural form:
No!, said Fred. [pause] The tree stood alone.
If we didn't have <hr>, I would imagine the above example would be marked
up as:
<p><q>No!</q> said Fred.</p>
<p>* * *</p>
<p>The tree stood alone.</p>
...or some such. I really don't think:
<p><q>No!</q> said Fred.</p>
</plot>
<plot>
<p>The tree stood alone.</p>
...would be better than <hr>, in fact I think it would be unnatural from
an authoring perspective. We mustn't fall into the trap of considering
everything to be a hierarchy, just because that is what XML most easily
marks up. Book authors have managed quite well for centuries without
considering their documents to be formed of trees! (Notwithstanding what
paper is made of, I mean.)
--
Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
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