[whatwg] foreign attributes Re: several messages about XML syntax and HTML5
elias at torrez.us
Wed Dec 6 22:15:09 PST 2006
Thanks for your patience trying to work out these extremely hypothetical
examples with me. I need to figure out a way to get the internal
examples out here so we can discuss them concretely. In the meantime,
you have motivated me to look at the existing infrastructure with a
different perspective and try to see how we can solve our problems
without adding new attributes.
One of the key problems I'm trying to solve is to have a single parser
for all HTML files. I'll keep the list posted on my progress on that and
come back when I have more information on the rest.
Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Elias Torres wrote:
>>>> <div> <span class="ibm-part-description">our part number <span
>>> Yes? What about it?
>> I guess this is similar to Karl's example.
>> <div id="order1" class="ibm-order">
>> <span class="ibm-part-description">our part number
>> <span class="part-id">123</span>
>> part-id would according to microformats be a property of
>> ibm-part-description existential instead of order1. Is there way to
>> specify that kind of behavior. Would include do the trick here?
> I don't understand what you mean by "existential" in this paragraph.
> If you are saying "how do we make the pard-id be a property of the order
> instead of the description", then the answer is:
> <div id="order1" class="ibm-order">
> <span class="ibm-part-description">our part number</span>
> <span class="part-id">123</span>
>>>> Microformats is very restrictive in how you can parse the data.
>>> I don't understand why you think this. Could you elaborate?
>> I guess restrictive is the wrong word, it's only defined to say you must
>> grab the entire HTML content within the element. Fair enough again.
>> Although, I'd like to differentiate between HTML sub-content, plain text
>> and also specify which data type. quantity is an integer/long/etc.
> Well, you can define your structure pretty much as you like, nothing
> forces you to define "description" in the example above as being the
> entire contents, you could just as easily say that your processing model
> only involves the direct child text nodes, or some such.
>>>> We need the flexibility of specify the content everywhere, yet the
>>>> property apply to any element on the page, not just the parent
>>> Again, concrete examples would really help me understand this?
>> In some part of the page....
>> <div id="picture1">
>> <img src="picture1.jpg">
>> Now somewhere else in the page....
>> <span about="picture1" property="dc:title">A Night in Venice</span>
>> Here I'm able to connect two elements in the page. I'm not sure how I
>> would use id to differentiate the two.
> Why would you need this? Just have:
> <img src="picture1.jpg" alt="">
> <legend> A night in Venice </legend>
> If you could provide a URI to a document showing why you need the legend
> and the figure split from each other, that would be very useful.
> I can't emphasise enough that it would really help if you could point to
> some real world examples (with URIs) showing what we are talking about.
> Currently, as I've mentioned before, it feels very hypothetical.
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Elias Torres wrote:
>> I think we keep focusing on the ways to extract information and I don't
>> disagree that we could find a million ways to hack class attributes to
>> do so. I can see myself doing class="about-subjectName",
>> class="predicate-propertyName", and so on. If anything, what I'm asking
>> for is a less hacky way of using "ibm-xxxxx" for everything and maybe
>> have a way to denote a prefix and a property attribute to different
>> properties from classes. Let me know if this would bring down HTML5 if
>> we were to try.
> I really don't follow. Why do you need prefixes? What is "hacky" about the
> well-defined and accessible extension model in HTML today?
>> On the other hand, we keep missing the point, that no matter what the
>> syntax is, in microformats at least (our current answer) we can't
>> differentiate from class values that are properties/classes(types) and
>> which ones are not.
> You know which are which. You invented them. (Although, what's a class
> value that _isn't_ a "property/class(type)" ?)
>> In our scenarios that we have been exchanging is nothing but ideal to
>> see how the structure maps to our data and how easy is to write JS to
>> get at it. However, we are looking for a mechanism that focuses on
>> property attribute to know when someone indicated a property as opposed
>> to just a style.
> Don't use class for styles. Problem solved.
>> It's like imagining a generic microformat extractor that generates JSON
>> objects on any random webpage with a lot of different styles and a few
>> hCards here and there. Is this really ideal? I think that before HTML5
>> microformats did what it could with what is there (not to say that HTML
>> isn't semantic at all today), but if we can define more clearly defined
>> attributes to do so, why not?
> Could you show me Web pages that are trying to do what you are referring
> to, which would benefit from what you are describing? It would really help
> me understand what problem you are trying to solve.
>> Do you see any workable solution?
> To be honest I don't understand the problem, let alone have a solution.
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